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#1
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Can Olive wait for the beep?
2002 156 2.0JTS + oil levels:
We all know that Alfas use oil. When my oil starts to get low I can hear a difference in the engine noise and in the past I have always topped up the oil immediately. Only once in 8 years has the computer's oil low message beeped at me. I stopped within 200 yards and put a litre in on that occasion. My question is, how much damage would be done if I keep the oil at a low level - in other words, wait for the warning and then stick a pint in, then wait for the warning again and stick another pint in and so on. The reason I ask is that the performance of the engine improves noticably when the oil is low and I rather like it!! Clearly the performance is better because the oil level is low enough to allow 'things' to move more easily as the drag is reduced, but it is not low enough to warrant a warning, however that lack of drag means the oil is possible not doing its job properly??? Opinions / facts / advice please... TIA. |
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#2
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Can Olive wait for the beep?
"GT" > wrote in message ... > 2002 156 2.0JTS + oil levels: > > We all know that Alfas use oil. When my oil starts to get low I can hear a > difference in the engine noise and in the past I have always topped up the > oil immediately. Only once in 8 years has the computer's oil low message > beeped at me. I stopped within 200 yards and put a litre in on that > occasion. > > My question is, how much damage would be done if I keep the oil at a low > level - in other words, wait for the warning and then stick a pint in, > then wait for the warning again and stick another pint in and so on. The > reason I ask is that the performance of the engine improves noticably when > the oil is low and I rather like it!! Clearly the performance is better > because the oil level is low enough to allow 'things' to move more easily > as the drag is reduced, but it is not low enough to warrant a warning, > however that lack of drag means the oil is possible not doing its job > properly??? > > Opinions / facts / advice please... > > TIA. > An observation : although I've heard many times that Alfa's use oil, mine must be the exception to the rule : in 12 years and 85k miles, I can only remember topping up (by a pint each time) twice (I check every couple of weeks or so). In response to your query : - I think you're on very dodgy ground waiting for a computer to alert you. I worked in IT for many, many years, and wouldn't trust a computer futher than I could throw it (especially a computer in an Alfa Romeo). - I'm no mechanic (I just enjoy driving the Alfa), but isn't there a risk of causing (expensive / terminal) damage if one allows the oil level to get "low" ? Dave S... 156 2.0 SP2 '98 :>)) |
#3
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Can Olive wait for the beep?
Dave Savage wrote:
> "GT" > wrote in message > ... >> 2002 156 2.0JTS + oil levels: >> >> We all know that Alfas use oil. I have to go with *some*, but your point is made. >When my oil starts to get low I can hear a >> difference in the engine noise Ditto >and in the past I have always topped up the >> oil immediately. Only once in 8 years has the computer's oil low message >> beeped at me. I stopped within 200 yards and put a litre in on that >> occasion. >> >> My question is, how much damage would be done if I keep the oil at a low >> level - in other words, wait for the warning and then stick a pint in, >> then wait for the warning again and stick another pint in and so on. The >> reason I ask is that the performance of the engine improves noticably when >> the oil is low and I rather like it!! Clearly the performance is better >> because the oil level is low enough to allow 'things' to move more easily >> as the drag is reduced, but it is not low enough to warrant a warning, >> however that lack of drag means the oil is possible not doing its job >> properly??? I would be *really* surprised if 1)There was any actual increase in performance 2) If it was measurable, that it could be felt without proper equipment. Simply put much of the oil isn't actually 'in' the engine anyway. It's hanging around in the sump getting cooled off. The engine temp should stay pretty constant, so if there is a reduction in the drag on moving components, it's going to be pretty much due to reduction of oil in the important bits. Not good. >> >> Opinions / facts / advice please... The engine should be fine running at minimum. Assuming the designers have done their job. >> >> TIA. >> > An observation : although I've heard many times that Alfa's use oil, mine > must be the exception to the rule : in 12 years and 85k miles, I can only > remember topping up (by a pint each time) twice (I check every couple of > weeks or so). > > In response to your query : > > - I think you're on very dodgy ground waiting for a computer to alert you. I > worked in IT for many, many years, and wouldn't trust a computer futher than > I could throw it (especially a computer in an Alfa Romeo). Fair call. > > - I'm no mechanic (I just enjoy driving the Alfa), but isn't there a risk of > causing (expensive / terminal) damage if one allows the oil level to get > "low" ? If it gets *too* low, undoubtedly. -- Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3 Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply) 116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6 Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see. www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk |
#4
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Can Olive wait for the beep?
"Catman" > wrote in message
... > Dave Savage wrote: >> "GT" > wrote in message >> ... >>> 2002 156 2.0JTS + oil levels: >>> >>> We all know that Alfas use oil. > > I have to go with *some*, but your point is made. > >>When my oil starts to get low I can hear a >>> difference in the engine noise > > Ditto > >>and in the past I have always topped up the >>> oil immediately. Only once in 8 years has the computer's oil low message >>> beeped at me. I stopped within 200 yards and put a litre in on that >>> occasion. >>> >>> My question is, how much damage would be done if I keep the oil at a low >>> level - in other words, wait for the warning and then stick a pint in, >>> then wait for the warning again and stick another pint in and so on. The >>> reason I ask is that the performance of the engine improves noticably >>> when the oil is low and I rather like it!! Clearly the performance is >>> better because the oil level is low enough to allow 'things' to move >>> more easily as the drag is reduced, but it is not low enough to warrant >>> a warning, however that lack of drag means the oil is possible not doing >>> its job properly??? > > I would be *really* surprised if > 1)There was any actual increase in performance > 2) If it was measurable, that it could be felt without proper equipment. All I can say is that when the oil is low, the car 'picks up' noticably more quickly as I pass a certain rev point, it actually feels like a very gentle turbo has kicked in sometimes. This is not a new development it has done this for the past 8 years, since new! It might not be lower oil level that is directly causing the change, but it is only noticable when the oil is low. It is not a performance improvement across all the rev range, just as I accellerate past about 2000. I know the engine runs in lean-burn up to 1500 revs, but there is no noticable change as it moved out of that into normal burn. Perhaps this change is set a little higher than intended and that is what I'm feeling? > Simply put much of the oil isn't actually 'in' the engine anyway. It's > hanging around in the sump getting cooled off. Here's my non-mechanics question: Is the oil pumped round the engine as the coolant is, or does it 'splash' its way round everything? I've snipped most of the rest of this, but in defence of the on-board 'Uhura' - mine seems to complain about things more often than ignoring them - it errs on the side of caution - engine 'failure' warnings after the occasional cough (not for months now tho), handbrake on warnings when stop-starting downhill in traffic jams etc, so until this was mentioned, I *was* happy to rely on it! |
#5
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Can Olive wait for the beep?
GT wrote:
> "Catman" > wrote in message > ... >> Dave Savage wrote: >>> "GT" > wrote in message >>> ... >>>> 2002 156 2.0JTS + oil levels: >>>> >>>> We all know that Alfas use oil. >> I have to go with *some*, but your point is made. >> >>> When my oil starts to get low I can hear a >>>> difference in the engine noise >> Ditto >> >>> and in the past I have always topped up the >>>> oil immediately. Only once in 8 years has the computer's oil low message >>>> beeped at me. I stopped within 200 yards and put a litre in on that >>>> occasion. >>>> >>>> My question is, how much damage would be done if I keep the oil at a low >>>> level - in other words, wait for the warning and then stick a pint in, >>>> then wait for the warning again and stick another pint in and so on. The >>>> reason I ask is that the performance of the engine improves noticably >>>> when the oil is low and I rather like it!! Clearly the performance is >>>> better because the oil level is low enough to allow 'things' to move >>>> more easily as the drag is reduced, but it is not low enough to warrant >>>> a warning, however that lack of drag means the oil is possible not doing >>>> its job properly??? >> I would be *really* surprised if >> 1)There was any actual increase in performance >> 2) If it was measurable, that it could be felt without proper equipment. > > All I can say is that when the oil is low, the car 'picks up' noticably more > quickly as I pass a certain rev point, it actually feels like a very gentle > turbo has kicked in sometimes. This is not a new development it has done > this for the past 8 years, since new! It might not be lower oil level that > is directly causing the change, but it is only noticable when the oil is > low. It is not a performance improvement across all the rev range, just as I > accellerate past about 2000. I know the engine runs in lean-burn up to 1500 > revs, but there is no noticable change as it moved out of that into normal > burn. Perhaps this change is set a little higher than intended and that is > what I'm feeling? IIRC that cam variation is set by oil pressure, so there *may* be something in it. OTOH it's likely that it just seems faster because of the different sound, or similar. > >> Simply put much of the oil isn't actually 'in' the engine anyway. It's >> hanging around in the sump getting cooled off. > > Here's my non-mechanics question: Is the oil pumped round the engine as the > coolant is, or does it 'splash' its way round everything? That rather depends on what bit you are talking about. Some bits it's very much pumped in. Cam bearings, big ends, stuff like that. Some less crucial splashing occurs. There is probably a significant cooling effect on (for example) the con rods which mostly move in free air, and are IIRC, oiled by 'splashing'. ICBW though. > > I've snipped most of the rest of this, but in defence of the on-board > 'Uhura' - mine seems to complain about things more often than ignoring > them - it errs on the side of caution - engine 'failure' warnings after the > occasional cough (not for months now tho), Sensor failure / loose connection. > handbrake on warnings when > stop-starting downhill in traffic jams etc, so until this was mentioned, I > *was* happy to rely on it! FWIW I rely on mine, mostly -- Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3 Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply) 116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6 Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see. www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk |
#6
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Can Olive wait for the beep?
Gt spoke:
> All I can say is that when the oil is low, the car 'picks up' noticably more > quickly as I pass a certain rev point, it actually feels like a very gentle > turbo has kicked in sometimes. This is not a new development it has done > this for the past 8 years, since new! It might not be lower oil level that > is directly causing the change, but it is only noticable when the oil is > low. It is not a performance improvement across all the rev range, just as I > accellerate past about 2000. I know the engine runs in lean-burn up to 1500 > revs, but there is no noticable change as it moved out of that into normal > burn. Perhaps this change is set a little higher than intended and that is > what I'm feeling? I've said this before about my jtd, mine is 'moody', sometimes sluggish, sometimes eager to go. Yours might be the same? Also mine does not seem to use oil, but does use coolant! -- Rob Pearson 156 1.9jtd sportwagon (now) 164 V6 Lusso (gone) |
#7
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Can Olive wait for the beep?
\"R C Nesbit" > wrote in message
... > Gt spoke: >> All I can say is that when the oil is low, the car 'picks up' noticably >> more >> quickly as I pass a certain rev point, it actually feels like a very >> gentle >> turbo has kicked in sometimes. This is not a new development it has done >> this for the past 8 years, since new! It might not be lower oil level >> that >> is directly causing the change, but it is only noticable when the oil is >> low. It is not a performance improvement across all the rev range, just >> as I >> accellerate past about 2000. I know the engine runs in lean-burn up to >> 1500 >> revs, but there is no noticable change as it moved out of that into >> normal >> burn. Perhaps this change is set a little higher than intended and that >> is >> what I'm feeling? > > I've said this before about my jtd, mine is 'moody', sometimes sluggish, > sometimes eager to go. Yours might be the same? > > Also mine does not seem to use oil, but does use coolant! Do the diesels normally drink oil? (I mean engine oil, not diesel!)? I have never had reason to even open the coolant bottle once in 8 years - its never moved. It drinks oil goes in phases. They really do have personalities and yes - somedays mine is sluggish, other days its like a spanked hare. But isn't the MAF a common problem on the diesels - and the symptoms are what you just described? I find the following true also - perhaps linked to my current problem: If I'm driving along at a steady speed with the revs at say 2000, my foot won't be pressing the pedal much. If I floor it, normally the car accellerates, but not quickly, but if i press the pedal only a little bit - a cm or two - then sometimes it takes off like I just whipped it. When I gradually press the pedal and build it up (or down) to the floor, the power seems to behave. I have adjusted my driving style to suite over a number of years and I no longer give it sudden movements in the accellerator, but it still seems odd that I get more power by putting my foot down a little than when I stand on the pedal! |
#8
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Can Olive wait for the beep?
GT wrote:
> \"R C Nesbit" > wrote in message > ... >> Gt spoke: >>> All I can say is that when the oil is low, the car 'picks up' noticably >>> more >>> quickly as I pass a certain rev point, it actually feels like a very >>> gentle >>> turbo has kicked in sometimes. This is not a new development it has done >>> this for the past 8 years, since new! It might not be lower oil level >>> that >>> is directly causing the change, but it is only noticable when the oil is >>> low. It is not a performance improvement across all the rev range, just >>> as I >>> accellerate past about 2000. I know the engine runs in lean-burn up to >>> 1500 >>> revs, but there is no noticable change as it moved out of that into >>> normal >>> burn. Perhaps this change is set a little higher than intended and that >>> is >>> what I'm feeling? >> I've said this before about my jtd, mine is 'moody', sometimes sluggish, >> sometimes eager to go. Yours might be the same? >> >> Also mine does not seem to use oil, but does use coolant! > > Do the diesels normally drink oil? (I mean engine oil, not diesel!)? > I have never had reason to even open the coolant bottle once in 8 years - > its never moved. It drinks oil goes in phases. > > They really do have personalities and yes - somedays mine is sluggish, other > days its like a spanked hare. But isn't the MAF a common problem on the > diesels - and the symptoms are what you just described? > > I find the following true also - perhaps linked to my current problem: > > If I'm driving along at a steady speed with the revs at say 2000, my foot > won't be pressing the pedal much. If I floor it, normally the car > accellerates, but not quickly, but if i press the pedal only a little bit - > a cm or two - then sometimes it takes off like I just whipped it. When I > gradually press the pedal and build it up (or down) to the floor, the power > seems to behave. I have adjusted my driving style to suite over a number of > years and I no longer give it sudden movements in the accellerator, but it > still seems odd that I get more power by putting my foot down a little than > when I stand on the pedal! > Possibly coming on cam, or drive by wire throttle. -- Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3 Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply) 116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6 Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see. www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk |
#9
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Can Olive wait for the beep?
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 21:37:29 +0100, "GT" > wrote:
>Do the diesels normally drink oil? (I mean engine oil, not diesel!)? No. There were two alleged aspects to the JTS engine that affected oil consumption: 1/ Wide ranging mechanical tolerances. 2/ Deliberate oil burning to lower cylinder temperatures and improve emissions. IIRC, there were reports of both cases in the (earlier) JTS engines but the true picture was never really established as, in the cases I heard of, oil consumption just managed to stay within the specification and Alfa washed their hands of them. The oil consumption fiasco was one of the reasons I decided an Alfa diesel was the only sensible route to take (for me). I felt Alfa were taking the **** by requiring owners treat their petrol engines like sensitive racing two strokes for reasons that appeared more related to poor build and/or design because, even if they did have fairly good power outputs for the time, the cars performance still wasn't electrifying. -- Z Scotland Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather (sold) 'Oil' be seeing you.. (Email must have the word 'Alfa' in the subject line to get through auto-filtering) |
#10
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Can Olive wait for the beep?
"Zathras" > wrote in message
... > On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 21:37:29 +0100, "GT" > wrote: > >>Do the diesels normally drink oil? (I mean engine oil, not diesel!)? > > No. > > There were two alleged aspects to the JTS engine that affected oil > consumption: > > 1/ Wide ranging mechanical tolerances. > 2/ Deliberate oil burning to lower cylinder temperatures and improve > emissions. > > IIRC, there were reports of both cases in the (earlier) JTS engines > but the true picture was never really established as, in the cases I > heard of, oil consumption just managed to stay within the > specification and Alfa washed their hands of them. Mine is definitely an early one - one of the first 2002 156 2.0JTSs - old exterior, new interior, 165 2.0JTS. It doesn't really use that much oil - I think I've gone through about 17 'topup' litres in 8 years over 88,000 miles. Not bad really. Of course that's 15 litres more than some cars would use!! Also, about 5-6 years ago (after I moved house and the dealer garage was too far to go for a tin of oil) I started using 'normal' 10w40 instead of the 10w60 (Selenia Racing) that the manual requests. No changes to report on performance or efficiency after the change. I don't really hang about, but I've never really thrashed the car, so hard driving might make a difference. > The oil consumption fiasco was one of the reasons I decided an Alfa > diesel was the only sensible route to take (for me). I felt Alfa were > taking the **** by requiring owners treat their petrol engines like > sensitive racing two strokes for reasons that appeared more related to > poor build and/or design because, even if they did have fairly good > power outputs for the time, the cars performance still wasn't > electrifying. |
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