A Cars forum. AutoBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AutoBanter forum » Auto newsgroups » Technology
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old September 8th 07, 01:22 AM posted to alt.autos.toyota,rec.autos.tech
Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 616
Default OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 08:18:06 -0500, * wrote:

> Tell me about the "effects" you have obtained by using different tire
> sizes. Stagger? Crossweight? Corner weights? Etc.?
>
> What sort of circumference variances are you talking about?
>
>
> Now, don't go and "PLONK!" me, again.......
>
> We all now know that your "PLONK!" statements aren't worth the electrons
> used to display them.



I can switch to that system, if you'd like...


Ads
  #42  
Old September 8th 07, 01:22 AM posted to alt.autos.toyota,rec.autos.tech
Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 616
Default OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires

On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:50:08 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

>>
>> If you tried to put the first tire on the rim meant for the second tire,
>> the sidewall would blowout. A real recipe for disaster.
>>
>> If you don't know this, then NO WAY are you telling me what to do with
>> my tires!!!
>>
>> So, on my Corolla with OEM rims of 5.5", I had to take a set of wheels
>> off my Celica (6.5") to run the hi-poi 195/45-14s or run the risk of the
>> sidewall flexing too much and blowing the tire off the rim...
>>
>>
>>

> Nope. They would both fit on the 6.5" rims you have. And the only real
> problem with running them on the 5.5 would be tread wear due to the narrow
> rim..



Not what Bridgestone said. I'll take their word...


  #43  
Old September 8th 07, 03:25 PM posted to alt.autos.toyota,rec.autos.tech
*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires



E Meyer > wrote in article
>...
>
>
>
> On 9/7/07 8:55 AM, in article 01c7f156$151493a0$f192c3d8@race, "*"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote in article

<HP2Ei.16866$453.2177@trndny02>...
> >> On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 08:32:34 -0500, * wrote:
> >>
> >>>> I make sure they fit the rims correctly.
> >>>
> >>> With today's tire and rim technology, how can a 14" tire fit a 14"

rim
> >>> incorrectly?
> >>
> >>
> >> And you're telling me you're an 'expert?!?!?!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Toyo Proxes T1r
> >> 195/45R14
> >> 15Lbs.
> >> 280 Treadwear
> >> MP
> >> V Rated
> >> Tread Depth 10
> >> Rim Width (Min/Max) 6 - 7.5
> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Toyo Proxes Tpt
> >> 185/60R14
> >> 16Lbs.
> >> Rim Width (Min/Max) 5 - 6.5
> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> If you tried to put the first tire on the rim meant for the second

tire,
> >> the sidewall would blowout. A real recipe for disaster.
> >>
> >> If you don't know this, then NO WAY are you telling me what to do with

my
> >> tires!!!
> >>
> >> So, on my Corolla with OEM rims of 5.5", I had to take a set of wheels

> > off
> >> my Celica (6.5") to run the hi-poi 195/45-14s or run the risk of the
> >> sidewall flexing too much and blowing the tire off the rim...
> >>
> >>
> >>

> >
> >
> >
> > In spite of all your horse schidt, here is one undeniable fact......
> >
> >
> > A tire supporting a 500 pound load will have a footprint of 20
> > square-inches at an inflation pressure of 25 p.s.i. and a footprint of

12.5
> > square-inches at 40 p.s.i. inflation. That's simple high school math

and
> > physics.
> >
> > The ONLY differences between the footprints of a "narrow" tire versus a
> > "wide" tire is the SHAPE of the footprint. They BOTH require the

same-sized
> > footprint to support the same load at the same inflation pressures.
> >
> > With the 20 square-inch example, a ten-inch-wide tread will have a
> > footprint that is ten-inches wide by two-inches long while a five-inch
> > tread would have a footprint that is five-inches wide by four-inches

long.
> >
> > With 25 pounds of air pressure, you need 20 square-inches to support

500
> > pounds.....one way or another.
> >
> > By running your tires at maximum inflation, you are running the car at

62.5
> > percent of the tire footprint that the car manufacturer has designed

the
> > suspension to work with.
> >
> >
> >

>
> Undeniable fact?? Usually the stuff you put out is more or less correct
> (bravado and SOB-ness not withstanding), but I need to see a legit

reference
> for this one.
>
>



"The Racing & High-Performance Tire" by Paul Haney

ISBN 0-9646414-2-9

Available through SAE - or directly from Haney at:

http://www.insideracingtechnology.com/


Page 70 and 71 "Load and Internal Pressure"


  #44  
Old September 8th 07, 03:28 PM posted to alt.autos.toyota,rec.autos.tech
*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires



Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote in article <hVlEi.27$cy3.23@trndny03>...
> On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:13:59 +0000, E Meyer wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > On 9/7/07 8:55 AM, in article 01c7f156$151493a0$f192c3d8@race, "*"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote in article
> >> <HP2Ei.16866$453.2177@trndny02>...
> >>> On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 08:32:34 -0500, * wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> I make sure they fit the rims correctly.
> >>>>
> >>>> With today's tire and rim technology, how can a 14" tire fit a 14"

rim
> >>>> incorrectly?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> And you're telling me you're an 'expert?!?!?!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Toyo Proxes T1r
> >>> 195/45R14
> >>> 15Lbs.
> >>> 280 Treadwear
> >>> MP
> >>> V Rated
> >>> Tread Depth 10
> >>> Rim Width (Min/Max) 6 - 7.5
> >>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Toyo Proxes Tpt
> >>> 185/60R14
> >>> 16Lbs.
> >>> Rim Width (Min/Max) 5 - 6.5
> >>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> If you tried to put the first tire on the rim meant for the second
> >>> tire, the sidewall would blowout. A real recipe for disaster.
> >>>
> >>> If you don't know this, then NO WAY are you telling me what to do

with
> >>> my tires!!!
> >>>
> >>> So, on my Corolla with OEM rims of 5.5", I had to take a set of

wheels
> >> off
> >>> my Celica (6.5") to run the hi-poi 195/45-14s or run the risk of the
> >>> sidewall flexing too much and blowing the tire off the rim...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> In spite of all your horse schidt, here is one undeniable fact......
> >>
> >>
> >> A tire supporting a 500 pound load will have a footprint of 20
> >> square-inches at an inflation pressure of 25 p.s.i. and a footprint of
> >> 12.5 square-inches at 40 p.s.i. inflation. That's simple high school
> >> math and physics.
> >>
> >> The ONLY differences between the footprints of a "narrow" tire versus

a
> >> "wide" tire is the SHAPE of the footprint. They BOTH require the
> >> same-sized footprint to support the same load at the same inflation
> >> pressures.
> >>
> >> With the 20 square-inch example, a ten-inch-wide tread will have a
> >> footprint that is ten-inches wide by two-inches long while a five-inch
> >> tread would have a footprint that is five-inches wide by four-inches
> >> long.
> >>
> >> With 25 pounds of air pressure, you need 20 square-inches to support

500
> >> pounds.....one way or another.
> >>
> >> By running your tires at maximum inflation, you are running the car at
> >> 62.5 percent of the tire footprint that the car manufacturer has
> >> designed the suspension to work with.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>

> > Undeniable fact?? Usually the stuff you put out is more or less

correct
> > (bravado and SOB-ness not withstanding), but I need to see a legit
> > reference for this one.

>
>
> I also want to see what's Horse Schidt about a manufacturer's
> recommendation for rim widths.
>
> I'll take their word first...
>
>
>



I've just answered Mr. Meyer's question.........

When can I expect you to answer the questions I have posed to you?



  #45  
Old September 8th 07, 04:09 PM posted to alt.autos.toyota,rec.autos.tech
*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires



* > wrote in article
<01c7f223$682b6500$9698c3d8@race>...
>
>
> >
> > Undeniable fact?? Usually the stuff you put out is more or less

correct
> > (bravado and SOB-ness not withstanding), but I need to see a legit

> reference
> > for this one.
> >
> >

>
>
> "The Racing & High-Performance Tire" by Paul Haney
>
> ISBN 0-9646414-2-9
>
> Available through SAE - or directly from Haney at:
>
> http://www.insideracingtechnology.com/
>
>
> Page 70 and 71 "Load and Internal Pressure"
>
>
>


Quote from Page 70, third paragraph down......

"The contact patch area (A) is equal to the vertical force (Fv) in pounds
divided by the internal pressure (P) in pounds per square inch."


500 pounds of vertical force (amount of vehicle weight supported by that
wheel) divided by 25 p.s.i. inflation pressure equals a 20 square-inch
contact patch.


500/25=20


OTOH.....500 pounds of vertical force divided by 40 p.s.i. inflation
pressure equals a 12.5 square-inch contact patch.

500/40=12.5


Simple, eh?


  #46  
Old September 8th 07, 04:42 PM posted to alt.autos.toyota,rec.autos.tech
B.B.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 35
Default OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires

In article <01c7f150$8e8f9280$f192c3d8@race>,
"*" > wrote:

[...]

> Now, could you please answer the rest of the questions I asked?
>
> I'm REALLY curious about the part where you say, "I've been farting around
> with tires for 30 years, and using different sizes for different effects
> for 20."
>
> As I asked before, exactly what sort of "effects" have you
> experienced/observed using different tire sizes?
>
> And, I repeat......
>
> Since "....farting around...." with tires for 30 years has given you so
> much insight and technical knowledge, please.......
>
> Tell me about your tire's actual footprint at different inflations.
>
> Tell me about your tire's spring rate at different inflations.
>
> Tell me about your tire's sidewall stiffness ratings.
>
> Can't do it without a tire dyno, and I seriously doubt if you have
> one.....and, your daily tire kick doesn't even come close.


How much does any of that matter in a passenger car? Really, I can
understand worry over those stats with a race car since they tend to
push the limits, but in an econo?
FWIW, running a tire at a higher pressure will reduce contact area as
you have stated over and over, but it will also increase ground
pressure. I have seen nothing from you addressing the tradeoff--only an
assertion that less area means less traction. And with some conditions,
such as water on the road, higher ground pressure is far more valuable
than contact area.
As long as there is enough pressure to keep the side wall from
bulging excessively and the tire isn't grossly above the max pressure
printed on it, just about any pressure will do. But running low (as
most people do since they don't ever look at their tires until one goes
flat) accelerates tire wear.
He's not talking about race cars, so tire spring rate, sidewall
stiffness, and fancy tire dynos are irrelevant. A pressure gauge and
some eyeballs are sufficient.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net
  #47  
Old September 8th 07, 06:23 PM posted to alt.autos.toyota,rec.autos.tech
*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires



B.B. u> wrote in article
>...
> In article <01c7f150$8e8f9280$f192c3d8@race>,
> "*" > wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > Now, could you please answer the rest of the questions I asked?
> >
> > I'm REALLY curious about the part where you say, "I've been farting

around
> > with tires for 30 years, and using different sizes for different

effects
> > for 20."
> >
> > As I asked before, exactly what sort of "effects" have you
> > experienced/observed using different tire sizes?
> >
> > And, I repeat......
> >
> > Since "....farting around...." with tires for 30 years has given you so
> > much insight and technical knowledge, please.......
> >
> > Tell me about your tire's actual footprint at different inflations.
> >
> > Tell me about your tire's spring rate at different inflations.
> >
> > Tell me about your tire's sidewall stiffness ratings.
> >
> > Can't do it without a tire dyno, and I seriously doubt if you have
> > one.....and, your daily tire kick doesn't even come close.

>



My original question was directed towards his claim, "I've been farting
around with tires for 30 years, and using different sizes for different
effects for 20. "

What, exactly, did he discover?

And, what tells him that he is right?


> How much does any of that matter in a passenger car? Really, I can
> understand worry over those stats with a race car since they tend to
> push the limits, but in an econo?


Just wanted to see if he actually learned anything or was simply blowing
smoke.....I'm betting on the smoke.....


> FWIW, running a tire at a higher pressure will reduce contact area as
> you have stated over and over, but it will also increase ground
> pressure. I have seen nothing from you addressing the tradeoff--only an
> assertion that less area means less traction. And with some conditions,
> such as water on the road, higher ground pressure is far more valuable
> than contact area.


I wasn't speaking about rain tires or snow tires.

That's not the condition under which the tire is used most.

As far as I knew, we were discussing dry road, and had not even considered
the complexities of less-than-ideal road surfaces.

THAT's a whole 'nuther issue.

Overinflation lifts the outside edges of the tire, effectively lengthening
the contact patch by changing the length/width ratio of the contact patch.

A wider, shorter contact patch (at the same inflation pressure) produces
more grip because less of the contact patch is slipping at the same load
and slip angle.


> As long as there is enough pressure to keep the side wall from
> bulging excessively and the tire isn't grossly above the max pressure
> printed on it, just about any pressure will do.



Only if you believe that 12.5 square-inches of contact patch on the ground
will control the car as well as 20 square-inches,

But, what if it is below the maximum pressure, but so overinflated for the
load that the outer edges of the tread are picking up off the ground?

I put load cells on my tire dyno, and you can actually SEE the loads on the
outer edges of the tread decrease as we over-inflate the tire.

On some steel-belted radials, you can see the outer edges GAIN in load as
the tread wraps around the edges of the belt upon over-inflation.


> But running low (as
> most people do since they don't ever look at their tires until one goes
> flat) accelerates tire wear.


I agree....

> He's not talking about race cars, so tire spring rate, sidewall
> stiffness, and fancy tire dynos are irrelevant. A pressure gauge and
> some eyeballs are sufficient.
>


No, but he's talking some bull about having learned things by experimenting
with the tires.

Just calling him on his over-inflated (pun intended) bluff............


Gotta' go. My 1:30 appointment just pulled into the yard.


  #48  
Old September 8th 07, 06:26 PM posted to alt.autos.toyota,rec.autos.tech
*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires



Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote in article <YWlEi.30$cy3.22@trndny03>...
> On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 08:18:06 -0500, * wrote:
>
> > Tell me about the "effects" you have obtained by using different tire
> > sizes. Stagger? Crossweight? Corner weights? Etc.?
> >
> > What sort of circumference variances are you talking about?
> >
> >
> > Now, don't go and "PLONK!" me, again.......
> >
> > We all now know that your "PLONK!" statements aren't worth the

electrons
> > used to display them.

>
>
> I can switch to that system, if you'd like...
>
>
>


Go ahead!

I'll STILL sleep tonight.......

......and, YOU will avoid answering the questions I have asked you.


  #49  
Old September 8th 07, 06:32 PM posted to alt.autos.toyota,rec.autos.tech
*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires



Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote in article <CXlEi.31$cy3.19@trndny03>...
> On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:50:08 -0400, Steve W. wrote:
>
> >>
> >> If you tried to put the first tire on the rim meant for the second

tire,
> >> the sidewall would blowout. A real recipe for disaster.
> >>
> >> If you don't know this, then NO WAY are you telling me what to do with
> >> my tires!!!
> >>
> >> So, on my Corolla with OEM rims of 5.5", I had to take a set of wheels
> >> off my Celica (6.5") to run the hi-poi 195/45-14s or run the risk of

the
> >> sidewall flexing too much and blowing the tire off the rim...
> >>
> >>
> >>

> > Nope. They would both fit on the 6.5" rims you have. And the only real
> > problem with running them on the 5.5 would be tread wear due to the

narrow
> > rim..

>
>
> Not what Bridgestone said. I'll take their word...
>
>
>


Tire manufacturer "recommendations" are based more on potential litigation
than actual applications.

We regularly mount race tires on wider and narrower rims to gain
circumferential differences for chassis tuning pruposes.

I have run many, MANY brands of street tires - including
Firestone/Bridgestone - on much-wider-than-recommended and
much-narrower-than-recommended rims at one time or another - under racing
conditions and at racing speeds - with no ill effects.


  #50  
Old September 8th 07, 06:44 PM posted to alt.autos.toyota,rec.autos.tech
Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 616
Default OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 10:42:21 -0500, B.B. wrote:

> He's not talking about race cars, so tire spring rate, sidewall
> stiffness, and fancy tire dynos are irrelevant. A pressure gauge and some
> eyeballs are sufficient.



Ah, but I do drive windy, twisty roads as fast as possible.

Since changing from the 185/70-14s to 185/60-14s, I am able to take the
twisties an average of about 6 MPH faster. Also, fuel economy increased
about 10%. (Yes, allowing for odometer inaccuracies...the 'course' has
been measured with two other cars. now all three agree on mileage...)

But, the point is missed.

My original quandry was this: on the old tires, acceleration was sluggish
at best, and often going up very short, steep grades required dropping a
gear (usually from 4th to 3rd). It would also mean winding out the engine
longer into higher RPMs to get any kind of 'adequate' acceleration, esp
for a small, light car with a 145 HP engine.

Now, the car FEELS like a small,light car w/ 145 HP. Acceleration is what
I would expect, I reach the 'power band' quicker and can upshift to a
higher gear at lower RPMs and still have plenty of grunt, whereas before
the car would be wheezing under the same circumstances.

This was REALLY the quandry I was looking to answer...why the car took on
completely different characteristics by changing the tires...


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Winter drivinng: FWD and RWD with snow tires vs. AWD with all-season tires - what people who have done the tests say GRL BMW 27 February 26th 06 07:27 PM
FS: 5'er Snow Tires: Wheels and Tires Nik BMW 5 December 16th 05 01:36 AM
Quiet tires=soft tires? Frank Honda 8 March 16th 05 08:40 PM
Winter tires vs offroad tires. Goldhawk 4x4 5 January 5th 05 10:34 PM
Cleaning White Wall Tires Joe Hudon Antique cars 2 May 27th 04 06:21 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AutoBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.