97 ZJ 5.2 cooling leak

"J. Clarke" > wrote in message
...
On Saturday, February 8, 2014 11:50:44 AM UTC-5, DougW wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> >> This morning took a look. Radiator full, expansion tank empty.
>
> >> Filled the expansion tank, started it up and let it come to
>
> >> temperature. No sign of a leak, but no heat and the top hose took a
>
> >> long time to get hot. Shut it off and it sucked the coolant out of
>
> >> the expansion tank down to the "add" mark and seemed to stop. I
>
> >> topped it up and figure I'll give it an hour or so to cool down and
>
> >> for the feeling to return to my fingers and then take another look.
>
> >
>
> > And it gets weirder. An hour later the expansion tank was empty. I
>
> > topped it up and ran the engine warm again. No evident leaks.
>
> > There's glycol dripping off the hood that's made a little puddle on
>
> > the firewall, and a little puddle about the same size underneath--but
>
> > that could have been some I spilled filling up the expansion tank.
>
> > With the engine off there's no hiss or other sound suggestive of
>
> > leakage.
>
>
>
> Usually that means the system had air in it, fairly common after
>
> refilling to have to top the expansion tank up a few times.
>
>
>
> Closed system, the radiator should be full and the expansion
>
> tank should just move between low and high.
>
>
>
> It's going to have to get up to high temp before there is
>
> enough pressure in the system to make a small leak visible.
>
> That and sometimes the hoses have to warm up enough for little
>
> holes to open up. A good hard squeeze on the top radiator
>
> hose can make things show up.
>
>
>
> I have had lost coolant due to a leak in the expansion hose
>
> right by the radiator cap. Also had a problem with the cap
>
> itself leaking (not holding pressure and pushing fluid out
>
> into the expansion tank)
>
>
>
> A leaky expansion tank will also slowly drain the system.
>
> But that usually makes a big mess.
>
>
>
> Just to make sure it's not a bigger problem, what color is the oil?
>
>
>
> Finding those leaks is a real pain. Didn't find my last one
>
> till it up and ****ed on me.

Oil's black--needs changing but no water in it (lost a tranny like that back
in the '60s--drove a Lincoln through a puddle that turned out to be deeper
than I expected and it went right down the dipstick hole).

Took it Midas (don't laugh--the one near here has a really good mechanic if
it's not his day off--today, alas, was his day off) and they told me it
needed a new radiator on the basis of five minutes inspection and on the
evidence of coolant dripping. Since it's dripping from everywhere right now
I didn't buy the evidence.

Plan now is to toss in a bottle of Bars Leaks and keep an eye on it and see
what happens. If it's going down fast I'll take it to the dealer, who is a
bumbling incompetent but at least goes by the book, which is chock full of
diagnostic procedures, if it's going down slow I'll wait until it starts
going down fast. And yeah, I know stop leak type products can plug the
radiator. Given that the temperature was zero this morning and supposedly
it needs a new radiator anyway, I'll take my chances.

Is the wet area on the underside of the hood normally above the waterpump?

If so the seals / bearings are going in the waterpump.

Many older 318 (known today as the 5.2) engines would lose the seals just
before the pump started making noise.

And the trick on the bypass hose is dish detergent and channel-lock pliers.

Dip the hose ends in a little dish detergent, fold with the pliers till the
ends point 90 degrees to each other and then push it on to the t-stat and
pump housing nipples.

Use stainless screw type clamps instead of the wire "jesus!!!" clamps
(called that because most mechanics take one look at them and say ...
jesus!!!!) and you're good to go.


--
Budd Cochran

Need proof that we need less government?

They can't run a website that could have

been built with WYSIWYG5!



---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On Saturday, February 8, 2014 11:57:38 PM UTC-5, Budd Cochran wrote:
> "J. Clarke" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> On Saturday, February 8, 2014 11:50:44 AM UTC-5, DougW wrote:
>
> > J. Clarke wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > <snip>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >> This morning took a look. Radiator full, expansion tank empty.
>
> >
>
> > >> Filled the expansion tank, started it up and let it come to
>
> >
>
> > >> temperature. No sign of a leak, but no heat and the top hose took a
>
> >
>
> > >> long time to get hot. Shut it off and it sucked the coolant out of
>
> >
>
> > >> the expansion tank down to the "add" mark and seemed to stop. I
>
> >
>
> > >> topped it up and figure I'll give it an hour or so to cool down and
>
> >
>
> > >> for the feeling to return to my fingers and then take another look.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > And it gets weirder. An hour later the expansion tank was empty. I
>
> >
>
> > > topped it up and ran the engine warm again. No evident leaks.
>
> >
>
> > > There's glycol dripping off the hood that's made a little puddle on
>
> >
>
> > > the firewall, and a little puddle about the same size underneath--but
>
> >
>
> > > that could have been some I spilled filling up the expansion tank.
>
> >
>
> > > With the engine off there's no hiss or other sound suggestive of
>
> >
>
> > > leakage.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Usually that means the system had air in it, fairly common after
>
> >
>
> > refilling to have to top the expansion tank up a few times.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Closed system, the radiator should be full and the expansion
>
> >
>
> > tank should just move between low and high.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > It's going to have to get up to high temp before there is
>
> >
>
> > enough pressure in the system to make a small leak visible.
>
> >
>
> > That and sometimes the hoses have to warm up enough for little
>
> >
>
> > holes to open up. A good hard squeeze on the top radiator
>
> >
>
> > hose can make things show up.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I have had lost coolant due to a leak in the expansion hose
>
> >
>
> > right by the radiator cap. Also had a problem with the cap
>
> >
>
> > itself leaking (not holding pressure and pushing fluid out
>
> >
>
> > into the expansion tank)
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > A leaky expansion tank will also slowly drain the system.
>
> >
>
> > But that usually makes a big mess.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Just to make sure it's not a bigger problem, what color is the oil?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Finding those leaks is a real pain. Didn't find my last one
>
> >
>
> > till it up and ****ed on me.
>
>
>
> Oil's black--needs changing but no water in it (lost a tranny like that back
>
> in the '60s--drove a Lincoln through a puddle that turned out to be deeper
>
> than I expected and it went right down the dipstick hole).
>
>
>
> Took it Midas (don't laugh--the one near here has a really good mechanic if
>
> it's not his day off--today, alas, was his day off) and they told me it
>
> needed a new radiator on the basis of five minutes inspection and on the
>
> evidence of coolant dripping. Since it's dripping from everywhere right now
>
> I didn't buy the evidence.
>
>
>
> Plan now is to toss in a bottle of Bars Leaks and keep an eye on it and see
>
> what happens. If it's going down fast I'll take it to the dealer, who is a
>
> bumbling incompetent but at least goes by the book, which is chock full of
>
> diagnostic procedures, if it's going down slow I'll wait until it starts
>
> going down fast. And yeah, I know stop leak type products can plug the
>
> radiator. Given that the temperature was zero this morning and supposedly
>
> it needs a new radiator anyway, I'll take my chances.
>
>
>
> Is the wet area on the underside of the hood normally above the waterpump?
>
>
>
> If so the seals / bearings are going in the waterpump.
>
>
>
> Many older 318 (known today as the 5.2) engines would lose the seals just
>
> before the pump started making noise.
>
>
>
> And the trick on the bypass hose is dish detergent and channel-lock pliers.
>
>
>
> Dip the hose ends in a little dish detergent, fold with the pliers till the
>
> ends point 90 degrees to each other and then push it on to the t-stat and
>
> pump housing nipples.
>
>
>
> Use stainless screw type clamps instead of the wire "jesus!!!" clamps
>
> (called that because most mechanics take one look at them and say ...
>
> jesus!!!!) and you're good to go.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Budd Cochran
>
>
>
> Need proof that we need less government?
>
>
>
> They can't run a website that could have
>
>
>
> been built with WYSIWYG5!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
>
> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
>
> http://www.avast.com

It was on the left (passenger) side of the hood only. Nothing on the right, nothing over front center, nothing on the right valve covers or the air ducting, but all over the left side, not just on the hood but on the fender and everything. Looked hard at the water pump, it's dry.

Yesterday afternoon it was sitting on the "full" mark with the engine warm. Today, after driving about 20 miles last night and letting it sit overnight it's about an inch below "full". No evident new drip marks either.

"J. Clarke" > wrote in message
...
On Saturday, February 8, 2014 11:57:38 PM UTC-5, Budd Cochran wrote:
> "J. Clarke" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> On Saturday, February 8, 2014 11:50:44 AM UTC-5, DougW wrote:
>
> > J. Clarke wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > <snip>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >> This morning took a look. Radiator full, expansion tank empty.
>
> >
>
> > >> Filled the expansion tank, started it up and let it come to
>
> >
>
> > >> temperature. No sign of a leak, but no heat and the top hose took a
>
> >
>
> > >> long time to get hot. Shut it off and it sucked the coolant out of
>
> >
>
> > >> the expansion tank down to the "add" mark and seemed to stop. I
>
> >
>
> > >> topped it up and figure I'll give it an hour or so to cool down and
>
> >
>
> > >> for the feeling to return to my fingers and then take another look.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > And it gets weirder. An hour later the expansion tank was empty. I
>
> >
>
> > > topped it up and ran the engine warm again. No evident leaks.
>
> >
>
> > > There's glycol dripping off the hood that's made a little puddle on
>
> >
>
> > > the firewall, and a little puddle about the same size underneath--but
>
> >
>
> > > that could have been some I spilled filling up the expansion tank.
>
> >
>
> > > With the engine off there's no hiss or other sound suggestive of
>
> >
>
> > > leakage.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Usually that means the system had air in it, fairly common after
>
> >
>
> > refilling to have to top the expansion tank up a few times.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Closed system, the radiator should be full and the expansion
>
> >
>
> > tank should just move between low and high.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > It's going to have to get up to high temp before there is
>
> >
>
> > enough pressure in the system to make a small leak visible.
>
> >
>
> > That and sometimes the hoses have to warm up enough for little
>
> >
>
> > holes to open up. A good hard squeeze on the top radiator
>
> >
>
> > hose can make things show up.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I have had lost coolant due to a leak in the expansion hose
>
> >
>
> > right by the radiator cap. Also had a problem with the cap
>
> >
>
> > itself leaking (not holding pressure and pushing fluid out
>
> >
>
> > into the expansion tank)
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > A leaky expansion tank will also slowly drain the system.
>
> >
>
> > But that usually makes a big mess.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Just to make sure it's not a bigger problem, what color is the oil?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Finding those leaks is a real pain. Didn't find my last one
>
> >
>
> > till it up and ****ed on me.
>
>
>
> Oil's black--needs changing but no water in it (lost a tranny like that
> back
>
> in the '60s--drove a Lincoln through a puddle that turned out to be deeper
>
> than I expected and it went right down the dipstick hole).
>
>
>
> Took it Midas (don't laugh--the one near here has a really good mechanic
> if
>
> it's not his day off--today, alas, was his day off) and they told me it
>
> needed a new radiator on the basis of five minutes inspection and on the
>
> evidence of coolant dripping. Since it's dripping from everywhere right
> now
>
> I didn't buy the evidence.
>
>
>
> Plan now is to toss in a bottle of Bars Leaks and keep an eye on it and
> see
>
> what happens. If it's going down fast I'll take it to the dealer, who is
> a
>
> bumbling incompetent but at least goes by the book, which is chock full of
>
> diagnostic procedures, if it's going down slow I'll wait until it starts
>
> going down fast. And yeah, I know stop leak type products can plug the
>
> radiator. Given that the temperature was zero this morning and supposedly
>
> it needs a new radiator anyway, I'll take my chances.
>
>
>
> Is the wet area on the underside of the hood normally above the waterpump?
>
>
>
> If so the seals / bearings are going in the waterpump.
>
>
>
> Many older 318 (known today as the 5.2) engines would lose the seals just
>
> before the pump started making noise.
>
>
>
> And the trick on the bypass hose is dish detergent and channel-lock
> pliers.
>
>
>
> Dip the hose ends in a little dish detergent, fold with the pliers till
> the
>
> ends point 90 degrees to each other and then push it on to the t-stat and
>
> pump housing nipples.
>
>
>
> Use stainless screw type clamps instead of the wire "jesus!!!" clamps
>
> (called that because most mechanics take one look at them and say ...
>
> jesus!!!!) and you're good to go.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Budd Cochran
>
>
>
> Need proof that we need less government?
>
>
>
> They can't run a website that could have
>
>
>
> been built with WYSIWYG5!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
>
> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
> protection is active.
>
> http://www.avast.com

It was on the left (passenger) side of the hood only. Nothing on the right,
nothing over front center, nothing on the right valve covers or the air
ducting, but all over the left side, not just on the hood but on the fender
and everything. Looked hard at the water pump, it's dry.

Yesterday afternoon it was sitting on the "full" mark with the engine warm.
Today, after driving about 20 miles last night and letting it sit overnight
it's about an inch below "full". No evident new drip marks either.



If the system still loses coolant, it's one of the heater hoses or the valve
controlling the flow to the heater.

Check for coolant or coolant stains on the passenger side of the intake
manifold also.

Another possibility, if Mopar hasn't rid the head and block of the front
freeze plug is that one of the plugs has developed a pinhole leak or wasn't
seated properly.


--
Budd Cochran

Need proof that we need less government?

They can't run a website that could have

been built with WYSIWYG5!



---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 21:40:15 -0700, "Budd Cochran" >
wrote:
> It was on the left (passenger) side of the hood only. Nothing on
the right,
> nothing over front center, nothing on the right valve covers or the
air
> ducting, but all over the left side, not just on the hood but on
the fender
> and everything. Looked hard at the water pump, it's dry.

If that was my 4.0 I'd think heater hoses because that's where they
run.

On Monday, February 10, 2014 6:58:54 AM UTC-5, DougW wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 21:40:15 -0700, "Budd Cochran" >
>
> wrote:
>
> > It was on the left (passenger) side of the hood only. Nothing on
>
> the right,
>
> > nothing over front center, nothing on the right valve covers or the
>
> air
>
> > ducting, but all over the left side, not just on the hood but on
>
> the fender
>
> > and everything. Looked hard at the water pump, it's dry.
>
>
>
> If that was my 4.0 I'd think heater hoses because that's where they
>
> run.

The 5.2 has one heater hose on each side. My first reaction was heater hose, either a hole or a loose clamp, because the one on the passenger side is in the exact right spot, but I couldn't find anything coming out in any kind of volume and there was too much all over everything to spot a drip. Once things dried off a little I looked and ran my fingers along the underside of the hose but didn't see even seepage there.

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 04:29:52 -0800 (PST), "J. Clarke" wrote:

> The 5.2 has one heater hose on each side. My first reaction was
heater hos=
> e, either a hole or a loose clamp, because the one on the passenger
side is=
> in the exact right spot, but I couldn't find anything coming out
in any ki=
> nd of volume and there was too much all over everything to spot a
drip. On=
> ce things dried off a little I looked and ran my fingers along the
undersid=
> e of the hose but didn't see even seepage there.

I've seen hoses that only leak when they get up to temp and pressure.
That was what my hose was doing. The cute way of testing is to wrap
With a bit of toilet paper then aluminum foil to keep it in place.
The tp will catch leaks and the foil keeps it in place for the test.

Also, check the clamp, the self-springy ones get weak over time.
Replaced all mine with old fashioned stainless clamps.

J. Clarke wrote:

> The 5.2 has one heater hose on each side. My first reaction was heater
> hose, either a hole or a loose clamp, because the one on the passenger
> side is in the exact right spot, but I couldn't find anything coming out
> in any kind of volume and there was too much all over everything to spot a
> drip. Once things dried off a little I looked and ran my fingers along
> the underside of the hose but didn't see even seepage there.
>

With the engine at running temp, wrap a rag around those hoses (they get
pretty hot) and move them around a bit. That will often open up a small
crack so that you can see it. Same thing for clamps - move the hose so that
it flexes at the clamp. What is a small drop or damp spot becomes a fountain
under 15 psi or so at temp.

--
Will Honea

On Monday, February 10, 2014 8:28:22 PM UTC-5, Will Honea wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>
>
> > The 5.2 has one heater hose on each side. My first reaction was heater
>
> > hose, either a hole or a loose clamp, because the one on the passenger
>
> > side is in the exact right spot, but I couldn't find anything coming out
>
> > in any kind of volume and there was too much all over everything to spot a
>
> > drip. Once things dried off a little I looked and ran my fingers along
>
> > the underside of the hose but didn't see even seepage there.
>
> >
>
>
>
> With the engine at running temp, wrap a rag around those hoses (they get
>
> pretty hot) and move them around a bit. That will often open up a small
>
> crack so that you can see it. Same thing for clamps - move the hose so that
>
> it flexes at the clamp. What is a small drop or damp spot becomes a fountain
>
> under 15 psi or so at temp.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Will Honea

As things stand, after a week it hasn't lost any more coolant, so the Bars Leaks seems to have done the job.

If it lasts until warm weather I'm happy.

On Friday, February 7, 2014 4:54:57 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> On the way to work today I noticed some coolant smell and steam coming from under the hood. I checked at work and there was coolant on the passenger side of the engine. I stopped off at NAPA on the way home and got a couple of gallons of premix, filled the reservoir in the parking lot, and it was dry when I got home--the temperature redlined about a block from the house.
>
>
>
> I can't find any obvious hose problems and it's too dark outside now to troubleshoot. My first guess is the upper heater hose coming loose from its attachment on the block.
>
>
>
> FWIW, the dealer supposedly replaced all hoses at 75,000 miles--it's at 120,000 now. I know he missed the little short bypass hose that you have to pull the water pump to change because it broke around 100,000 and I replaced both it and the water pump at that time.
>
>
>
> I intend to crank it up tomorrow morning and let it warm up and see if I can see where it's leaking.
>
>
>
> Any other thoughts?

Wednesday afternoon it finally let go in earnest. Problem turned out to be the gasket on the timing chain cover, which apparently had a small crack that sealed itself after the first leak, then blew out a chunk on Thursday afternoon. Too much for me to tackle in the driveway in 5 degree weather--had to pay somebody to fix it. 10 bucks for the part, 300 for the labor, and of course he kept finding other problems.

J. Clarke wrote:

> Wednesday afternoon it finally let go in earnest. Problem turned out
> to be the gasket on the timing chain cover, which apparently had a
> small crack that sealed itself after the first leak, then blew out a
> chunk on Thursday afternoon. Too much for me to tackle in the
> driveway in 5 degree weather--had to pay somebody to fix it. 10
> bucks for the part, 300 for the labor, and of course he kept finding
> other problems.



I had the same feeling with a fuel pump a couple years back.
It cut out in a snow/ice storm after getting a full tank of gas.
Only place with the part and open was a dealership.

You know what they say... JEEP .. Just Empty Every Pocket.

--
DougW