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Automatic vs. Manual transmission



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 12th 11, 01:09 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
C. E. White[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 617
Default Automatic vs. Manual transmission


"Mr.E" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 20:33:09 -0500, "hls" > wrote:


> The new Ford 6 speed auto has no torque converter. It uses a computer
> applied clutch to start and shifts between two clutch driven gear
> trains that change the ratios- one for odd, one for even gears.
> I wonder how the clutch life will be.


I imagine it will be very good. It doesn't use the sort of clutches used by
a manual. It uses stacked clutch packs that are hydraulically activated. I
have a farm tractor with this sort of transmission. After 20 years of hard
use it is still just fine. And remember "traditional" automatics also
include clutches that are activated hydraulically. No reason to think the
clutches in the Fiesta "automatic" will be more failure prone than those.

Ed


Ads
  #12  
Old April 12th 11, 02:06 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
Mr.E
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default Automatic vs. Manual transmission

On Tue, 12 Apr 2011 08:09:33 -0400, "C. E. White"
> wrote:

>
>"Mr.E" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 20:33:09 -0500, "hls" > wrote:

>
>> The new Ford 6 speed auto has no torque converter. It uses a computer
>> applied clutch to start and shifts between two clutch driven gear
>> trains that change the ratios- one for odd, one for even gears.
>> I wonder how the clutch life will be.

>
>I imagine it will be very good. It doesn't use the sort of clutches used by
>a manual. It uses stacked clutch packs that are hydraulically activated. I
>have a farm tractor with this sort of transmission. After 20 years of hard
>use it is still just fine. And remember "traditional" automatics also
>include clutches that are activated hydraulically. No reason to think the
>clutches in the Fiesta "automatic" will be more failure prone than those.
>


http://www.egmcartech.com/2009/01/21...matic-gearbox/



In Europe, Ford currently offers a PowerShift transmission in the Ford
Focus. This PowerShift uses a twin wet-clutch system to handle the
higher torque levels of the 2.0-liter TDCI engine available in the
Focus.

In North America, a dry-clutch derivative of Ford’s PowerShift
transmission will be used for added efficiency and durability. A dry
clutch transmits power and torque through manual transmission clutch
facings, while most automatic transmissions utilize wet clutch plates
submerged in oil. As a result, the dry-clutch PowerShift transmission
does not require an oil pump or torque converter, providing superior
mechanical efficiency.

“A dry clutch is a real sweet spot for lighter vehicle applications,”
said Piero Aversa, manager, Ford Automatic Transmission Engineering.
“PowerShift is more efficient, it saves weight, is more durable, more
efficient and the unit is sealed for life, requiring no regular
maintenance.”

PowerShift, unlike conventional automatic transmissions, does not need
the heavier torque converter or planetary gears. In addition, the
dry-clutch derivative eliminates the need for the weighty pumps,
hydraulic fluids, cooling lines and external coolers that wet clutch
transmissions require. As a result, the dry-clutch PowerShift
transmission can weigh nearly 30 pounds less than, for example, the
four-speed automatic transmission featured on today’s Ford Focus.
--
Mr.E
  #13  
Old April 12th 11, 02:44 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
C. E. White[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 617
Default Automatic vs. Manual transmission


"Mr.E" > wrote in message
...
>
> http://www.egmcartech.com/2009/01/21...matic-gearbox/
>
>
>
> In Europe, Ford currently offers a PowerShift transmission in the Ford
> Focus. This PowerShift uses a twin wet-clutch system to handle the
> higher torque levels of the 2.0-liter TDCI engine available in the
> Focus.
>
> In North America, a dry-clutch derivative of Ford's PowerShift
> transmission will be used for added efficiency and durability. A dry
> clutch transmits power and torque through manual transmission clutch
> facings, while most automatic transmissions utilize wet clutch plates
> submerged in oil. As a result, the dry-clutch PowerShift transmission
> does not require an oil pump or torque converter, providing superior
> mechanical efficiency.
>
> "A dry clutch is a real sweet spot for lighter vehicle applications,"
> said Piero Aversa, manager, Ford Automatic Transmission Engineering.
> "PowerShift is more efficient, it saves weight, is more durable, more
> efficient and the unit is sealed for life, requiring no regular
> maintenance."
>
> PowerShift, unlike conventional automatic transmissions, does not need
> the heavier torque converter or planetary gears. In addition, the
> dry-clutch derivative eliminates the need for the weighty pumps,
> hydraulic fluids, cooling lines and external coolers that wet clutch
> transmissions require. As a result, the dry-clutch PowerShift
> transmission can weigh nearly 30 pounds less than, for example, the
> four-speed automatic transmission featured on today's Ford Focus.


Thanks very interesting...but what operates the dry clutches? The article
says "electro-mechanical"...so does this mean a solenoid(s)?

Ed


  #14  
Old April 12th 11, 02:58 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
Mr.E
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default Automatic vs. Manual transmission

On Tue, 12 Apr 2011 09:44:17 -0400, "C. E. White"
> wrote:

>
>"Mr.E" > wrote in message
.. .
>>
>> http://www.egmcartech.com/2009/01/21...matic-gearbox/
>>
>>
>>
>> In Europe, Ford currently offers a PowerShift transmission in the Ford
>> Focus. This PowerShift uses a twin wet-clutch system to handle the
>> higher torque levels of the 2.0-liter TDCI engine available in the
>> Focus.
>>
>> In North America, a dry-clutch derivative of Ford's PowerShift
>> transmission will be used for added efficiency and durability. A dry
>> clutch transmits power and torque through manual transmission clutch
>> facings, while most automatic transmissions utilize wet clutch plates
>> submerged in oil. As a result, the dry-clutch PowerShift transmission
>> does not require an oil pump or torque converter, providing superior
>> mechanical efficiency.
>>
>> "A dry clutch is a real sweet spot for lighter vehicle applications,"
>> said Piero Aversa, manager, Ford Automatic Transmission Engineering.
>> "PowerShift is more efficient, it saves weight, is more durable, more
>> efficient and the unit is sealed for life, requiring no regular
>> maintenance."
>>
>> PowerShift, unlike conventional automatic transmissions, does not need
>> the heavier torque converter or planetary gears. In addition, the
>> dry-clutch derivative eliminates the need for the weighty pumps,
>> hydraulic fluids, cooling lines and external coolers that wet clutch
>> transmissions require. As a result, the dry-clutch PowerShift
>> transmission can weigh nearly 30 pounds less than, for example, the
>> four-speed automatic transmission featured on today's Ford Focus.

>
>Thanks very interesting...but what operates the dry clutches? The article
>says "electro-mechanical"...so does this mean a solenoid(s)?
>

No clue Ed- I ran across lots of info when researching 2011/2012 cars
to replace a 94 Corolla that a tree fell on. Still not totally
decided..
--
Mr.E
  #15  
Old April 12th 11, 03:17 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
C. E. White[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 617
Default Automatic vs. Manual transmission


"Mr.E" > wrote in message
...

>>Thanks very interesting...but what operates the dry clutches? The article
>>says "electro-mechanical"...so does this mean a solenoid(s)?
>>

> No clue Ed- I ran across lots of info when researching 2011/2012 cars
> to replace a 94 Corolla that a tree fell on. Still not totally
> decided..


Well so far my experiences with the Fiesta automatic have been positive. It
is not quite as smooth as the AW 6 speed in my old Fusion, but better than
the AW automatic in my SO's RAV4. The only oddity I've noticed is the hill
holder "feature." Works OK, but feels "different" than a traditional
automatic. But it is much better than starting up a steep hill with a
traditional manual.

Ed


  #16  
Old April 12th 11, 03:19 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
That Tune
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 27
Default Automatic vs. Manual transmission

"C. E. White" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks very interesting...but what operates the dry clutches? The article
> says "electro-mechanical"...so does this mean a solenoid(s)?
>
> Ed


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_clutch_transmission


  #17  
Old April 12th 11, 04:27 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
Scott Dorsey
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,802
Default Automatic vs. Manual transmission

In article >, SBH > wrote:
>It's been well known a manual transmission obtains better fuel mileage than
>an automatic. My sister is preparing to purchase a Ford Fiesta and wants a
>manual, mainly for the fuel savings. The sales guy indicated the new
>transmissions (more so the 6 speed auto in the Fiesta) are better and more
>fuel efficient than manuals. Anyone know if this is true?


It depends entirely on who is driving. Some of the computer controlled
automatic systems are very, very good and probably better than the average
driver.

However, when those systems break, nobody really knows how to repair them,
whereas rebuilding a manual (even a transaxle) is something you can do in
the backyard.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #18  
Old April 12th 11, 04:58 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 35
Default Automatic vs. Manual transmission

On Apr 11, 6:00*pm, jim beam > wrote:
> On 04/11/2011 05:45 PM, SBH wrote:
>
> > It's been well known a manual transmission obtains better fuel mileage than
> > an automatic. My sister is preparing to purchase a Ford Fiesta and wants a
> > manual, mainly for the fuel savings. The sales guy indicated the new
> > transmissions (more so the 6 speed auto in the Fiesta) are better and more
> > fuel efficient than manuals. Anyone know if this is true?

>
> lots of people know the answer to this. *you could too if you could be
> bothered to look up the numbers on the manufacturer's website.
>
> you'd be better off asking the question "why" - if you don't want a
> "rtfm" answer.
>
> --
> nomina rutrum rutrum


Who knows if the manufacturers are telling the truth about the fuel
savings. I haven't met one person that gets the mileage that was
posted on the sticker from the factory. Believe them if you want.
  #19  
Old April 12th 11, 05:01 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
jim beam[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,204
Default Automatic vs. Manual transmission

On 04/12/2011 08:27 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> In >, > wrote:
>> It's been well known a manual transmission obtains better fuel mileage than
>> an automatic. My sister is preparing to purchase a Ford Fiesta and wants a
>> manual, mainly for the fuel savings. The sales guy indicated the new
>> transmissions (more so the 6 speed auto in the Fiesta) are better and more
>> fuel efficient than manuals. Anyone know if this is true?

>
> It depends entirely on who is driving. Some of the computer controlled
> automatic systems are very, very good and probably better than the average
> driver.
>
> However, when those systems break, nobody really knows how to repair them,


anyone saying this stuff is hard to repair is the same kind of luddite
that said that about fuel injection 30 years ago. now we laugh at
injection luddites, not only because injection systems are simpler to
repair, but because they're much more reliable.


> whereas rebuilding a manual (even a transaxle) is something you can do in
> the backyard.
> --scott


that's not true. look at one of these 6-speed dual clutch systems -
apart from the electronic control module [which i hope you don't think
is any less reliable than an injection computer], it's no more
complicated than a traditional stick. /way/ simpler than a traditional
auto with its hydraulic analog computer, pumps on input and output,
multiple actuators and multiple clutches. if you can't handle just two
clutches and a few electronic solenoids, you've got other problems.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum
  #20  
Old April 12th 11, 05:39 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
C. E. White[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 617
Default Automatic vs. Manual transmission


"That Tune" > wrote in message
...
> "C. E. White" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Thanks very interesting...but what operates the dry clutches? The article
>> says "electro-mechanical"...so does this mean a solenoid(s)?
>>
>> Ed

>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_clutch_transmission



Even better:

http://www.dctfacts.com/in-the-marke...h-america.aspx

http://media.ford.com/article_displa...ticle_id=32463

http://media.ford.com/article_displa...ticle_id=29738

http://media.ford.com/article_displa...ticle_id=34218

Ed


 




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