replacing single rear brake caliper?

TeGGeR® wrote:
> jim beam > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>Abeness wrote:
>
>
>>oil up my new parts a
>>
>>>little more so they don't rust... ahhh.
>>
>>*do not* *do not* *do not* oil brake parts!!! it rots the seal
>>rubbers big time. if you want to use a lube, make sure it's a
>>silicone lube. and beware that "synthetic" is not necessarily
>>silicone. "contains" silicone is not good enough either. needs to
>>100% silicone.
>
>
>
> Sil-Glyde (watch the spelling!) is OK and is readily available.
>
>
i hate that stuff. it says it "contains" silicone, and may be fine for
assembly in non-critical situations, but my experience is that it reacts
with the kind of rubber it's [allegedly] ok to be used on [natural
rubber - nr] & quickly turns into a sticky brown gunge. i'd use tom
cats urine before using that filth ever again. used it on some sway bar
bushings. left the car standing for a couple of weeks, & when i went to
drive it again, it felt like the suspension was locked solid.
eventually stripped the sway bar bushings down again, & it /was/ locked
solid! had to use a big screwdriver to pry that mess apart so i could
clean up. could see where the nr had swelled - classic symptom of oil
contamination. had to replace the bushings again because after the
contamination, the polymers were still breaking down & kept sticking
themselves to the sway bars. nightmare. it may be fine for butyl
rubbers, like cv joints, but nr like bushings & brake seals? absolutely
no no no way.

jim beam > wrote in news:r9Sdnc5A8cFvUALfRVn-
:

> TeGGeR® wrote:
>> jim beam > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>
>>>Abeness wrote:
>>
>>
>>>oil up my new parts a
>>>
>>>>little more so they don't rust... ahhh.
>>>
>>>*do not* *do not* *do not* oil brake parts!!! it rots the seal
>>>rubbers big time. if you want to use a lube, make sure it's a
>>>silicone lube. and beware that "synthetic" is not necessarily
>>>silicone. "contains" silicone is not good enough either. needs to
>>>100% silicone.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sil-Glyde (watch the spelling!) is OK and is readily available.
>>
>>
> i hate that stuff.


<snip slightly frightening rant>


> it may be fine for butyl
> rubbers, like cv joints, but nr like bushings & brake seals? absolutely
> no no no way.
>



I should have asked what Abeness wanted to keep from "rusting".

The caliper body is washed with either zinc yellow dichromate or that new
gray aluminum compound. Everything else is either rubber or Parkerized,
with the exception of the piston face and the parking brake mechanism.

I use Zip-Slip 100% silicone grease for internal seals and caliper piston
dust boots (which don't "rust"). The Sil-Glyde is used on external rubber
parts, such as slide pin boots (which don't "rust").

The advantage of Sil-Glyde is that it is substantial enough to resist
washing away under winter conditions. Pure silicone will disappear in days.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/rusty...s2_detail.html


Abeness would be better to keep the parts indoors on an upper floor of his
house rather than attempt anti-corrosive measures.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

TeGGeR® wrote:
> I should have asked what Abeness wanted to keep from "rusting".

*Clutch* master and slave cylinders; nothing to do with brakes, guys. It
seemed pretty clear to me that they were *very* lightly oiled on
arrival, but ISTR that we went through this discussion a while back and
I was probably informed that the factory coating was something special,
or whatever. I probably won't do more than stick the parts in a ziploc
bag after heating them very gently (i.e., very low heat) in the oven to
eradicate any moisture, as one might do with an iron skillet, though
lower temp.

TeGGeR® wrote:
> Abeness > wrote in :
>
>>Truth is, though, I got the replacement maybe 6-8 months ago before I
>>ran out of time, and it hasn't failed yet. Not leaking seriously,
>>either, just a little. I don't have to add fluid, but there is some
>>fluid present around the rubber boot at the pedal side of the engine
>>wall.
>
>
>
> Leave it too long and the fluid will dribble into the booster and eat the
> diaphragm. I found a tiny bit inside the "cup" of the booster.

You know I'm talking about the *clutch* master cylinder, right? I didn't
think that had a booster.

> Fix it now. Neglect can cost you. It's easy. Really.

It looks like the clutch master will be easy, too. I may apply your
saran wrap trick, though I'll probably want to change the fluid as I did
with my brakes last year. Maybe it was done when the clutch was
replaced, maybe not... Man, I regret not having that repair history
every other week.

Abeness wrote:
> seemed pretty clear to me that they were *very* lightly oiled on
> arrival, but ISTR that we went through this discussion a while back and
> I was probably informed that the factory coating was something special,
> or whatever.

I do know, BTW, that petroleum doesn't go near rubber. Thanks for the
reminder.

Abeness > wrote in :

> TeGGeR® wrote:
>> Abeness > wrote in :
> >
>>>Truth is, though, I got the replacement maybe 6-8 months ago before I
>>>ran out of time, and it hasn't failed yet. Not leaking seriously,
>>>either, just a little. I don't have to add fluid, but there is some
>>>fluid present around the rubber boot at the pedal side of the engine
>>>wall.
>>
>>
>>
>> Leave it too long and the fluid will dribble into the booster and eat
>> the diaphragm. I found a tiny bit inside the "cup" of the booster.
>
> You know I'm talking about the *clutch* master cylinder, right?



You are? Oops! Guess I didn't read carefully enough. That's different.



> I
> didn't think that had a booster.
>
>> Fix it now. Neglect can cost you. It's easy. Really.


Since the clutch has no booster, leaks only make a mess, nothing else. If
you don't mind the mess and the clutch re-engaging at lights, you can leave
it until the car is undriveble if you really have to.


>
> It looks like the clutch master will be easy, too. I may apply your
> saran wrap trick, though I'll probably want to change the fluid as I
> did with my brakes last year. Maybe it was done when the clutch was
> replaced, maybe not... Man, I regret not having that repair history
> every other week.
>


The clutch master cylinder is even easier to deal with than the brakes. If
you're changing both master and slave, you will be unable to keep the old
fluid. Everything has to come apart.

Bleeding will be very easy, as you've only got a single, short, simple
circuit and no proportioning valve. Just rip it all apart and throw the new
stuff together. You won't have any trouble bleeding it.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

TeGGeR® wrote:
> Since the clutch has no booster, leaks only make a mess, nothing else. If
> you don't mind the mess and the clutch re-engaging at lights, you can leave
> it until the car is undriveble if you really have to.

Well, I do have the parts--both master and slave, actually, on the
dealer's recommendation last summer at my pre-purchase checkup, though I
don't see any obvious leaking at the slave (they wrote up $3000 worth of
work all told). Haven't pulled the boot off yet, though. Clutch isn't
re-engaging at lights yet--thanks for the info on what I might start to
see. I don't *really* want brake fluid dripping down my carpeting, so
will probably do it, and both at the same time.

I *am* a little suspicious of a shudder that seems new as I pull out of
a parked position heading uphill (my block), but hopefully that's simply
the result of a change in the action of my leg in easing the clutch out
that I can adjust. Clutch seems fully engaged when the pedal is out all
the way. Hope it's not starting to slip!

> The clutch master cylinder is even easier to deal with than the brakes.
<snip>
> Just rip it all apart and throw the new
> stuff together. You won't have any trouble bleeding it.

Okeedok, thanks. I sure am glad I got a Helm manual (great investment,
that) and found this group. Great help.

TeGGeR® wrote:
> Abeness > wrote in :

>>The last time I checked my rear brakes, they were fine but for the fact
>>that the parking brake arm rotates freely on the left side, without
>>engaging the piston. 94 Civic EX. The calipers show no evidence of brake
>>action problems: perfectly smooth in-and-out action on both rear
>>pistons--they even retract automatically when the brake pedal is
>>released. The evidence points to there being a break in the link between
>>the p-brake cam (which looks perfect on the top side, nice boot and
>>seal, no rust) and the piston, inside the caliper. Whether it's the pin,
>> sleeve piston, or adjusting bolt, I dunno--whatever it is, a reman
>>caliper is indicated.

Replaced the caliper yesterday, and the parking brake now works
correctly. Excellent! A few comments/additions to Tegger's excellent tips.

> Replacing the caliper is easy as pie, if you want to do it yourself.
> 1) Remove cover from master cylinder. Wet upper lip of cylinder with brake
> fluid, and smooth Saran Wrap over the open MC, making certain that there
> are no folds or kinks that cross the lip. Pull the Saran taut, and secure
> with a rubber band
> 2) Remove parking brake clevis pin, and remove clevis from parking brake
> shaft

Disconnect the parking brake lever return spring before attempting to
remove the pin--relieves the tension on the pin. Obviously, make sure
the parking brake is fully released (and that a front wheel is blocked).

> 3) With brake cleaner spray, spray all dirt off the banjo bolt at the back
> of the caliper, and remove the bolt
> 4) Have a pan under the caliper to catch the fluid that will drip out.
> Fluid will drip until the Saran Wrap is slightly concave, then it will stop

I was unable to achieve a perfect seal with the plastic wrap on my
master cylinder reservoir--either my rubber band wasn't tight enough or,
more likely, I think, there was enough going on around the outside of
the lip (locking tabs in particular) that it dripped a bit until I
rolled up a paper towel (the cheap, not-so-absorbent kind) into a tight
cone and pulled it into the hydraulic line connector, which was
conveniently shaped something like a donut. That stopped the drip until
I was ready to connect the new caliper.

Do be sure that there's enough fluid in the reservoir that it doesn't
become empty, or you'll have to bleed the whole system instead of just
the caliper you're working on.

At this point, one removes the caliper body from the caliper bracket and
the old caliper bracket from the wheel. Remove the pad spring and
retainers and install them in the new caliper. Then install the new
caliper bracket, and attach the caliper body to the bracket temporarily
to ease attaching the hydraulic line.

> 5) Flip old copper washer over, and install banjo bolt and hydraulic line
> onto new caliper.

My OEM reman caliper came with new washers (2, one for each side of the
connector).

> 6) Place a piece of wood to keep the piston from being able to be ejected
> from the bore, and bleed with the caliper OFF the mount bracket.

The wood is critical (could also probably use a C-clamp, now that I
think about it). ;-/ I forgot to stick it in initially (can't believe
THAT), and while the bleed relief and maybe my slow pumping prevented
the piston from ejecting completely, thank goodness, by the time I
remembered, it was far enough out that I faced two problems:

1) My Lisle disc brake piston tool was too large to rotate between the
piston and the caliper body--it got hung up on the body; and
2) Screwing the piston (with adept manipulation of a needle-nose pliers)
did not retract it. Perhaps it had extended beyond the threads of the
adjusting bolt, I dunno. Of course there's all kinds of little bits in
there (see p. 19-31 in the Helm manual for a diagram), and I was
seriously worried that I'd managed to cause it all to come apart.

Thankfully, persistence paid off in the end. Between pushing and turning
the piston, I managed to re-engage and retract it, then finished
bleeding it, and everything appears to be working correctly. If you turn
out to be forgetful like me and find yourself wrestling with needle-nose
pliers, be careful not to damage the rubber piston boot: it's easy for
the pliers to slip.

Live and learn...

> 7) Bleed as you normally would, but turning and rapping the caliper with a
> nylon hammer every few strokes to shock air bubbles free.
> 8) Reassemble to mount bracket and put parking brake back together
> 9) Done!
>
> Because of the complex internals, there are lots of little nooks and
> crannies that can trap air bubbles and make them hard to get rid of.
> Shocking the caliper while turning it different ways is the only way of
> dislodging them.

Worked for me. Several sets of bubbles emerged in the course of
turning/rapping. For some reason, the brakes feel slightly better after
replacing the caliper. Hmmm...

I'm a little concerned that the grease on everything (e.g. pins and cam)
*looked* like some of the petroleum greases I've seen, but I guess I'll
hope that since the caliper came right from Honda that the right grease
was used and I just don't know what it looks like.

Thanks again, Tegger, for being generous with your expertise. Much
appreciated.

Abeness > wrote in :

> TeGGeR® wrote:
>> Abeness > wrote in :
>
>>>The last time I checked my rear brakes, they were fine but for the
>>>fact that the parking brake arm rotates freely on the left side,
>>>without engaging the piston. 94 Civic EX. The calipers show no
>>>evidence of brake action problems: perfectly smooth in-and-out action
>>>on both rear pistons--they even retract automatically when the brake
>>>pedal is released.



Perfect! That's precisely what you want. Some time later I'll show you how
to keep them retracting that way. This involves a Lee Valley syringe and
some silicone grease.


<snip>


> Replaced the caliper yesterday, and the parking brake now works
> correctly. Excellent!


Congratulations! Other than the learning experience, it WAS easy, wasn't
it? Next time you'll be 4 times faster.


<snip>


> I was unable to achieve a perfect seal with the plastic wrap on my
> master cylinder reservoir--either my rubber band wasn't tight enough
> or, more likely, I think, there was enough going on around the outside
> of the lip (locking tabs in particular) that it dripped a bit



That Saran MUST be 100% flat and sealed along the MC reservoir lip. Dirt or
wrinkles (even the tiniest specks) in the Saran will prevent a perfect
seal. You also have to wet the lip with brake fluid before laying the Saran
down, then stretch it tight.




> until I
> rolled up a paper towel (the cheap, not-so-absorbent kind) into a
> tight cone and pulled it into the hydraulic line connector, which was
> conveniently shaped something like a donut. That stopped the drip
> until I was ready to connect the new caliper.



There's another approach I've used in cars with a non-round MC: Get a very
small C-clamp (G-clamp to you Brits), and a couple of tiny squares of
cereal box board. Put a square of board on either side of the banjo bolt
and tighten the C-clamp over them. If you still get leakage, build up two
or three thicknesses of board on each side (stick the pieces together with
glue or tape).



<snip>


> 1) My Lisle disc brake piston tool was too large to rotate between the
> piston and the caliper body--it got hung up on the body; and
> 2) Screwing the piston (with adept manipulation of a needle-nose
> pliers) did not retract it. Perhaps it had extended beyond the threads
> of the adjusting bolt, I dunno.



Yep. You have to push hard to get it back to the screw threads again. You
have to push the fluid back into the MC. As somebody once suggested here
(Mike Pardee?), you can open the bleed screw to release the excess fluid
that way instead.



> Of course there's all kinds of little
> bits in there (see p. 19-31 in the Helm manual for a diagram), and I
> was seriously worried that I'd managed to cause it all to come apart.



No way. No worries there. The ONLY thing you could ever have done is to
unscrew the piston off the adjusting screw. There is this amazingly strong
snap-ring deep inside keeping everything else together.

Actually, that's a way of doing a cheap-and-dirty rear caliper rebuild:
Simply unscrew the piston off the screw and remove it. Clean it off or
replace if rusty; replace the hydraulic seal; flush well with fresh brake
fluid and reassemble. Works well if the internal PB mechanism is still OK,
and saves having to get that inner snap-ring out.


<snip>


>
> Worked for me. Several sets of bubbles emerged in the course of
> turning/rapping. For some reason, the brakes feel slightly better
> after replacing the caliper. Hmmm...


Because BOTH pistons are now contributing to retardation efforts.


>
> I'm a little concerned that the grease on everything (e.g. pins and
> cam) *looked* like some of the petroleum greases I've seen, but I
> guess I'll hope that since the caliper came right from Honda that the
> right grease was used and I just don't know what it looks like.


It's silicone-based. You can't use petroleum greases because they wuill
destroy the neoprene.


>
> Thanks again, Tegger, for being generous with your expertise. Much
> appreciated.


That's what Usenet is for isn't it?

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>Abeness > wrote in :
>>
>>>>The last time I checked my rear brakes, they were fine but for the
>>>>fact that the parking brake arm rotates freely on the left side,
>>>>without engaging the piston. 94 Civic EX. The calipers show no
>>>>evidence of brake action problems: perfectly smooth in-and-out action
>>>>on both rear pistons--they even retract automatically when the brake
>>>>pedal is released.
>
>
>
>
> Perfect! That's precisely what you want. Some time later I'll show you how
> to keep them retracting that way. This involves a Lee Valley syringe and
> some silicone grease.

Well, that was then and this is now... it appears that the pins on the
right side might be binding a wee bit--the wheel is a tad tighter on
that side, as I discovered when adjusting the p-brake afetr the caliper
replacement. Phooey. I wonder if it was just the left caliper that was
replaced at 111.5K miles. Man, I curse the day I didn't get the repair
history on this vehicle. Yet another example of just how critical it is
if you have any chance of getting it when you buy a used vehicle.

I gotta look into a drill attachment to aid in scouring out the holes
those pins slide into... come to think of it, I think I've seen files
that are designed for drills. Just have to be careful not to overdo it.

> Congratulations! Other than the learning experience, it WAS easy, wasn't
> it? Next time you'll be 4 times faster.

For sure!

> That Saran MUST be 100% flat and sealed along the MC reservoir lip. Dirt or
> wrinkles (even the tiniest specks) in the Saran will prevent a perfect
> seal. You also have to wet the lip with brake fluid before laying the Saran
> down, then stretch it tight.

Tried to do all that. Would have been easier to get it right with
another set of hands, I suspect.

> There's another approach I've used in cars with a non-round MC: Get a very
> small C-clamp (G-clamp to you Brits), and a couple of tiny squares of
> cereal box board. Put a square of board on either side of the banjo bolt
> and tighten the C-clamp over them. If you still get leakage, build up two
> or three thicknesses of board on each side (stick the pieces together with
> glue or tape).

Good idea.

> Yep. You have to push hard to get it back to the screw threads again. You
> have to push the fluid back into the MC. As somebody once suggested here
> (Mike Pardee?), you can open the bleed screw to release the excess fluid
> that way instead.

Had done that, but it still took a hell of a lot of finagling to get
those screw threads to bite. I didn't have good leverage on the caliper
without the piston tool.

> No way. No worries there. The ONLY thing you could ever have done is to
> unscrew the piston off the adjusting screw. There is this amazingly strong
> snap-ring deep inside keeping everything else together.

Thanks goodness. The p-brake is still working correctly after
vacationing. But now of course the clutch master is starting to feel
funny, as is the accelerator, and it appears that one cylinder is
missing a bit. More summer projects, it seems.

>>Worked for me. Several sets of bubbles emerged in the course of
>>turning/rapping. For some reason, the brakes feel slightly better
>>after replacing the caliper. Hmmm...
>
>
>
> Because BOTH pistons are now contributing to retardation efforts.

The regular brake seemed to be working on that side despite the p-brake
problem--at least, stepping on the pedal resulted in the piston pushing
out. Maybe not as vigorously. Oh well, all speculation at this point.

>>Thanks again, Tegger, for being generous with your expertise. Much
>>appreciated.
>
>
>
> That's what Usenet is for isn't it?

Absolutely. I'm a regular volunteer supporter in another forum (for
publishing software). I've learned so much from usenet over the years, I
can't help passing it on when I can.