On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:19:42 -0700, Spike > wrote:

>On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:12:14 -0500,
>(Brent P) wrote:
>
>I think one law enforcement exchange program experience would open
>your eyes to a presence you fail to observe. Perhaps as you are
>traveling at 100+ the natural tunnel vision which develops blinds you
>to the obvious. Then read the annual reports from the people who
>manage the Autobahn. Read the engineering reports regarding the
>construction and maintenance of the Autobahn, and you will see that
>there is no other system, as old or new, which compares to what has
>gone into creating, maintaining, and improving the system, anywhere in
>the world, although some of the newer Japanese route are approaching
>first rate. You cite the Autobahn and how much more the drivers comply
>compared to the US. The Autobahn, extensive as it is, is a very small
>piece of the European roadway system. The portion you don't mention is
>nowhere near as complying. I would suggest that you get over there and
>do a much wider range of travel, and then question why the Autobahn
>has more compliance. It is not simply because the drivers are more
>polite.
>
>
>
>>In article >, Spike wrote:
>>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:58:37 -0500,
>>> (Brent P) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article >, Spike wrote:
>>>>> I still do not see where, with evidence that many users of the
>>>>> Autobahn violate lane discipline every day (and that's according to
>>>>> the Autobahn enforcement and management divisions),
>>>>
>>>>I didn't argue they violated it, I argue they follow it far more than US
>>>>drivers. And they do so without much in the way of enforcement. There is
>>>>very sparse enforcement on the autobahn, and when there is, they go after
>>>>things like tailgating, as that is the major problem there last I heard.
>>>>If we only had it so good.
>>>
>>> That is not accurate according to the Management and Enforcement
>>> agencies of the Autobahn. There are cameras for monitoring traffic,
>>> and enforcement uses a wide range of specialized, marked and unmarked,
>>> car and motorcycle patrols, as well as roadside monitoring. They go
>>> after violators of a wide range of traffic laws, including,
>>> lighting,signaling, speed, adverse conditions operation, lane
>>> changing at speed, proper lane maintenance, etc etc etc. I get the
>>> impression you have not personally driven the Autobahn, nor studied
>>> the management of it's use. If what you say is contrary to what the
>>> management and enforcement operations of the Autobahn, and the German
>>> government say, how can anything you say be taken seriously?
>>
>>You have an actual cite? Because this image of rigid enforcement you are
>>trying to convey is contrary to everything I've read, seen, and
>>experienced. Yes, there is enforcement, but it is not the
>>way you are making it out to be. There is no constant monitoring of
>>everyone, everywhere for violations as you are making it out to be. It
>>simply is not like that.
>>
>>There is some enforcement presence, but nothing like you claim. Sparse
>>would be a good word to describe it. Rural autobahn has effectively
>>nobody out there enforcing lane discipline, much like rural Indiana.
>>However, on the rural autobahn, there is lane discipline, while in rural
>>Indiana interstate it's practically nonexistant.
>>
>>Effectively what you are doing is taking the existance of a few red
>>light cameras and acting as if the entire US road system is so monitored.
>>
>>Also, I didn't write that only tailgating was enforced, but that
>>tailgating was the big problem. There are/have been tailgating traps set
>>up on overpasses to measure the distances between vehicles. Much like the
>>effort put in with speed traps in the USA.
>>
>>Patrol cars are few and far between as well.
>>
>>So, you show me this constant, ever present enforcement you claim exists.
>>I simply didn't see it, and you are the first person I've encountered to
>>claim it's there.
>>
>>> Law enforcement is there to enforce the law... and that includes
>>> traffic laws.
>>
>>Then enforce Keep Right except to pass. Enforce signaling, enforce a
>>whole host of laws on books in this country. But are they enforced? No.
>>
>>Here in IL, elected officals strengthen the lane discipline portion of the
>>vehicle code. In a year's time, the ISP writes a whole 50 some tickets.
>>It's trivial. On I90/94 it one could spend their entire shift writing
>>tickets for this and this alone.
>>
>>> Police officers don't make the laws.
>>
>>They damn well choose what to enforce and on who.
>>
>>> You put down the enforcement model, as if the cops make the rules.
>>
>>No, I put it down because it's idiotcy. The same way you are claiming the
>>autobahn is so tightly controled and how that's no good. (thankfully it's
>>not controlled like that)
>>
>>> Talk to the politicians.
>>
>>Yes, you're only following the orders of your masters.
>>
>>> There are a lot of changes we would like to see, but we
>>> have to live with what the system hands us.
>>
>>As if there is no selective enforcement.
>>
>>> You act as if our sole motivation is revenue.
>>
>>That's the motivation of your masters, the politicians, and since you
>>just follow orders, and told me to take it up with them, then it is your
>>motivation too.
>>
>>> It's clear you don't personally know many, if
>>> any at all, police officers. You clearly have no idea what they are
>>> about, or what they have to contend with from people who seem to think
>>> they are above the law because they know better than the enforcement
>>> officer, and everyone else.
>>
>>Oh, you mean like the ISP who ticket people for going faster than 55mph
>>but drive 85-90mph themselves? Or the local cops that rutinely speed and
>>don't use singals and make all sorts of violations? Or the cops who don't
>>know the vehicle code and demanded that I remove my vehicle (a bicycle)
>>from the roadway? Or my favorite, the two cops, one tailgating the other
>>driving 80mph or so on IL53, and when the lead cruiser used the brakes,
>>the following cruiser nearly rear ended the lead one.
>>
>>>>Also driver training in the USA is practically non-existant. People just
>>>>sort of decide on their own personal set of rules. This includes cops.
>>
>>> I do agree that driver training can be different in scope from one
>>> area to another. You see that elsewhere in the world. For example, in
>>> Belgium you were required to have a driver's license if you bought a
>>> new car, but if you bought a used car it was not required. In some
>>> countries, a license is unheard of for the masses. I know what my son
>>> went through to get his license. The number of months of restricted
>>> driving (things like not permitted to have other teens in the car is
>>> the law for new young drivers), etc. I'm getting the feeling you have
>>> selected a single region where you have experienced your peeves, and
>>> applied that to the entire country.
>>
>>What part of the US of A has a decent driver training program? Name one.
>>Just name one state that has something closer to say the UK's requirements
>>than usual around-the-block type testing of the USA.
>>
>>Oh, btw, the hoops teenagers in the USA are made to go through in the USA
>>only make for equally untrained older teenagers driving. It's not about
>>teaching them to drive, but just restricting their driving to limit the
>>damage they can do. (Identical mentality to having underposted speed
>>limits, let every idiot drive, but try to restrict the damage that will
>>occur when they hit something) Having only one passenger so they can't
>>kill 3 of their friends in a wreck under the concept that they cannot handle
>>distractions from said friends. Maybe it's because this is a culture of
>>multi-tasking drivers. Where driving isn't considered important, but
>>something you can do in addition to yacking on the phone, reading,
>>shaving, applying make up, etc... Just ease them into being like most of
>>the rest of the population.
>>
>>I'd like to see a state that starts requiring skid control classes in HS
>>driver's ed instead of having cops hassle the few that find an empty
>>parking lot to teach themselves.
>>
>>> People are different from one zone
>>> to another. Just as rural people are less apt to lock their homes than
>>> people living in major metro areas. I've lived in MA, NY, ME, IN, FL,
>>> MN, CA, WA, AK, rural and metro areas, and traveled through most of
>>> the rest of the country. My experience is fairly extensive.
>>
>>I am not saying observed behavior doesn't vary. It vary well does because
>>driving education in this country is essentially one generation teaching
>>the next. You can check in google groups to see where I have argued
>>before that it DOES vary from place to place. I found that lane
>>discipline in WV is orders of magnitude better than in IL, for instance.
>>So much for your newest manufactured angle. However, required
>>driver training in the USA is low in every state as far as I know.
>>
>
>Hey! Spikey Likes IT!
>1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
>Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior
>Vintage 40 Wheels 16X8"
>w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A Radial 225/50ZR16

I've spent almost seven years driving in Germany and through most of Europe. The
Europeans are much more disciplined drivers than what is seen in the US. Germans
can take a tag number and report a violation to the police. With a witness or
two, an offender can (and will, in many cases) be cited.

--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."