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Old January 11th 18, 04:27 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Clare Snyder
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Posts: 72
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 02:45:52 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 20:47:38 -0500,
> Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>> BULL****. You are an idiot.

>
>I think progress was made today with the realization that FF is probably
>the Chase Test SAE J866a friction designation for the OEM shoes.
>https://s18.postimg.org/wqilqasdl/to...n_material.jpg
>
>> ANd your perception is also bull****.

>
>My focus on specifications may be bull****, I agree, as it's a matter of
>trust in the specification for the SAE J866a Chaste Test results.
>
>Your focus on a billion web sites all accurately portraying "meets OEM
>quality" is also subject to trust.
>
>A web site may make all sorts of claims (say, for Axxis "performance"
>pads), while another web site sells the base pads (say, for PBR "economy"
>pads) where the numbers printed on the pads can tell me that they're the
>exact same pad because marketing can say almost anything they want as long
>as the pads fit.
>
>Luckily, the numbers tell us if they're the same pads, or not:
> AMECA Compliance List of Automotive Safety Devices:
> Friction Material Edge Codes(TM), May 2011
><http://safebraking.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/AMECA-List-of-VESC-V-3-Brake-Friction-Material-Edge-Codes-May-20112.pdf>
>
>> The brakes work perfectly, and they are OEM spec. The shoes from ford
>> are the same.

>
>That's great but you saw the mention that EE brake pads are only marginally
>better than no brake pad at all.
>http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/~smacadof/DOTPadCodes.htm
>
>> Again, they are perfectly serviceable. I can makethe antilock brakes
>> activate on dry pavement at any legal speed.

>
>You have a friction coefficient at a variety of temperatures of somewhere
>between 0.25u to 0.35u, which is a wide range.
>
>I personally have chided *anyone* who uses EE pads, especially those who
>did it without knowing that they were EE pads, becaues I would use FF pads
>which have a measurably higher friction coefficient of somewhere between
>0.35u to 0.45u, which itself is a huge range.
>
>> ANd steel on steel will stop you dead in your tracks - t5he problem
>> with steel on steel is there is no "feel" - it is either all or
>> nothing.

>
>I agree with you, as always, since I've *seen* rotors worn to their ribs,
>and the cars were still being driven on the road.
>
>All I'm saying, and all I ever said, was that I have never put EE pads or
>shoes on any vehicle and I hope that I never will.
>
>FF is fine for me as long as that meets OEM specs.
>
>> So you don't have a CLUE what you are spouting off about.

>
>We're talking about the SAE J688a Chase Test whose results are printed on
>*every* brake pad and shoe sold in the USA. This information has been
>around for many years. Here is the PDF from 2011 for example:
>
>> If the spec is fudged, it bullshuit. You don't KNOW the spec is real.
>> You are an IDIOT.

>
>I'm sorry if my adult conversation with you has offended you.
>We don't disagree on the technology.
>
>We simply disagree on the level of trust.
>
>For example, you trust EE pads far more than I do (and that's fine).
>You also trust that every web site accurately portrays "meets OEM specs"
>far more than I do, and that's fine.
>
>Apparently you don't trust the SAE J866a Chase Test results, which are
>printed on every brake pad and shoe - where I do.
>
>We don't disagree in concept - we merely have different trust levels in
>different sets of data.
>
>> I'm not denying you the right. Hire a materials inspection lab and
>> have them certify whatever product you buy before installing it.

>
>I agree with that that what really matters is real-world experience, where,
>you'll note, this report looks at EE and FF pads in Police Cruisers in
>depth:
>https://www.justnet.org/pdf/EvaluationBrakePads2000.pdf
>
>> Make
>> shure the materials lab is certified and experienced in brake friction
>> material,and that all instruments have been properly calibrated to a
>> certified standard - otherwize you are just guessing and hoping. - you
>> do not KNOW anything.

>
>Actually, I do.
>If we trust in the SAE J8866 Chase Test results, we do know a *lot* about
>the friction at various temperatures. And, if we match the entire code, we
>know *who* actually manufactured the pads/shoes (e.g., we'd know that some
>are just rebranded versions of others).
>
>So, it seems you may be under estimating the huge amount of knowledge there
>is in the direct result of SAE J866a tests printed on every brake pad and
>shoe sold in the USA today.
>
>We can tell if two pads from two different brands are the same pad, and we
>can tell who actually makes every pad sold in the USA today.
>
>It's all here, all 176 pages of it:
><http://safebraking.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/AMECA-List-of-VESC-V-3-Brake-Friction-Material-Edge-Codes-May-20112.pdf>
>
>> You are an argumentative know-it-all kid (whatever your age)

>
>I'm far younger than you are and not as experienced as you are.
>I don't have any experience with drum brakes.
>Like many here, I have an engineering degree but it's not in this field.
>
>> And there are brands I trust, and brands I don't. Among those brands I
>> don't particularly trust, their PREMIUM products are top notch. It's
>> their "economy" product that is substandard. Case in point.
>> Orange fram filters are sketchy - but their "synthetic" filter - their
>> premium product - is perfectly adequate - as good as a standard WIX,
>> Purolator, Mptorcraft, Mopar orAC Delco filter.

>
>Brands are a marketing gimmick.
>The 176 page document proves that.
>
>> You sure don't seem to be comprehending ANYTHING.

>
>I apologize that you feel I don't comprehend your statements.
>I think we have a difference in trust.
>You don't trust SAE J866a Chase Test results; I do.
>You trust marketing branding; I don't.
>
>It's not a matter of comprehension - but a matter of levels of trust.
>
>> I trust major quality OEM manufacturers to provide what they say they
>> are providing. Ihave 50 years experience buying and installing parts.
>> (and troubleshooting the systems the parts are used in)

>
>VW was making cars for a long time, but they screwed the consumer.
>Apple is an extremely trustworthy brand, but they screwed the consumer.
>Wells Fargo is a great brand, but they were fabricating accounts.
>
>What do you have against me being able to read the numbers on a brake shoe
>to tell if two brake shoes are either identical in all ways, or if they are
>made by the same (or different) manufacturer?
>
>Why would you hate me having that information?
>
>> You are not only an IDIOT but a PARANOID idiot. Lay off the weed!!

>
>I'm sorry if you think that being able to read the numbers printed on a
>brake shoe in order to tell if that shoe is identical to another shoe or
>made by the same company makes me a paranoid idiot.
>
>I'm sorry if knowing the SAE J866a Chase Test friction coefficient of a
>friction material makes me a paranoid idiot.
>
>There's nothing I can say to you if you think that, which will change your
>mind. We must just disagree.
>
>You seem to think information about friction for friction materials is bad.
>I seem to think it's a fundamental first order data for any friction pad.
>
>We will just have to disagree.
>
>> You are PARANOID

>
>I'm sorry you think I'm paranoid for wanting to know what the SAE J866a
>Chase Test friction coefficient is for the OEM shoes and for the shoes that
>I put on the vehicle.
>
>One thing that this "paranoia" will get me, and that's the fact that I hope
>to *never* put on any vehicle the same pads you put on yours, since EE pads
>are, as you know, only marginally better in friction than no pads at all.
>
>> Particularly crooked companioes like APPLE who have ALWAYS sold the
>> sizzle - not the steak.

>
>Well - we do *agree* on one thing!
>
>> I've NEVER believed Apple.

>
>See! There *is* common ground between us!
>
>> Nobodiy is denying you the RIGHT to do anything. Go buy a set of OEM
>> shoes from Toyota - read the specs on the material., then go buy
>> whatever the heck you want. Knowbody's stopping you.

>
>Actually, at $157 a set, I can't ask the owner to pay that much for an SAE
>J866a Chase Test FF shoe when I may be able to get an SAE J866a Chase Test
>FF shoe from the *same* manufacturer for around 20 or 30 bucks.
>
>It's all in the branding that the 176-page PDF decodes for us.
>
>> You know what ASS U ME does - PREsume just does it faster.




ASS U ME make an ASS of YOU and ME
>
>I'm younger than you, so I don't know all those clever repartee's yet.
>
>> Anything to dowith "government mandate" is open to abuse.

>
>Agreed. But you don't have any proof, do you, that the SAE J866a Chase Test
>is being abused?
>
>Even if it was abused, the standards require all pads to state their actual
>company of origin no matter what brand.
>
>Why do you hate me having this information of who actually made the shoe?
>
>> No, you trust that the spec printed on the material by some Chinese
>> sweat-shop . Youhave NO PROOF the material meets the spec, or that
>> the actual testing was done to the standard.

>
>Just a moment ago you repeatedly claimed I was paranoid.
>Now you claim that the SAE J866a standards as reported in this 176-page PDF
>are all faked?
>
> AMECA Compliance List of Automotive Safety Devices:
> Friction Material Edge Codes(TM), May 2011
><http://safebraking.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/AMECA-List-of-VESC-V-3-Brake-Friction-Material-Edge-Codes-May-20112.pdf>
>


If you are so smart how come you couldn't come upwith the current
edition of the report?

Quite some engineer, Isee.

http://www.ameca.org/wp-content/uplo...ber-8-2017.pdf
is the Dec 8, 2017 versiion


>Where's your shred of proof?
>
>> What I don't trust is an unknown manufacturer over a known supplier
>> of quality parts. I don't even LOOK at the "marketingbull****" that
>> you seem to put a lot of weight on.

>
>Why don't you trust that the number on pad 1, if it's the same as the
>number on pad 2, even if the brand is completely different, is the same
>pad?
>
>I'll open a separate discussion for the police report, as you bring up some
>very good points when you assert the EE pads outperformed the FF pads.

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