On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 03:34:20 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> wrote:

> On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 22:04:15 -0500,
> Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>> You do NOT need to know the ratings.
>
>I respectfully disagree with you - but I agree with you that if you buy
>from someone you *trust* (e.g., the dealership or your best friend who
>works at an auto parts store), then you don't need to worry about friction
>ratings because *they* worry about the friction rating for you.
>

No, your best friend whoworks at the auto parts store may be as
clueless as you are. BUY OEM SPEC PARTS and you can't go wrong.
>But let's face it.
>A brake shoe has one and only one primary job.
>And that's friction.
>
>If the friction rating of the shoe is, say, EF, and you buy FF, you're
>fine, but if you buy EE, then you're getting a shoe that has lower friction
>coefficients than the OEM manufacturer stated.

OEM SPEC parts WILL be equal to or excedingOEM specs.
>
>Now, *after* you get the right friction rating, there's more to the story
>(e.g., dust, noise, warranty, price, etc.), but if you don't know the OEM
>friction rating, then it's impossible to correctly buy brake shoes.
>

With pads you worry about dust - not so with drums/shoes.
>You can get *lucky*.
>But you are just guessing.

Soare you.
>
>> Buy their OEM quality shoes and
>> the manufacturer has done the homework for you. it will meet or excede
>> OEM spec - which is all you need or want.
>
>We're both saying the same thing, which is that the friction rating (which,
>by law, is printed on *every* USA pad) will meet or exceed the OEM spec if
>you buy from a reliable source who would, we hope, refuse to sell you a
>brake pad *lower* than the OEM spec.

No, they will sell you what you are willing to pay for. If you want
"economy" friction, they willsell you "economy" friction - which M<AY
have the same friction characteristics, but only last 50,000 miles, or
30,000 instead of 175000.
>
>Let's hope that's the case for mom and pop - but for me - I trust in the
>friction rating, since it's printed on *every* shoe, it isn't hard to find
>(if the shoe is in your hands).
Then ask to see the factory shoe at the dealer and read the rating.

The "monroe premium" shoes I have "on the shelf" for my ranger are EE
on all 4 shoes.
The "certified" semi-metallic pads I have "onthe shelf" for the ranger
are EF


Since the rear brakes basically "go along for the ride" unless you
are hauling a load, the friction rating isn't TERRIBLY critical anyway
-
>
>> They are virtually ALWAYS sourced as a set of 4 - I've never seen
>> shoes sold individually.
>
>I did some more homework by calling the local parts stores (I had called
>the dealer first) who tell me that they sell them for less than twenty
>bucks for a set of four.
>
>The wheel cylinders are cheap also, at about 16 bucks per cylinder and at
>about 7 bucks for the repair kit so I'll get a couple of those too.

LikeI said - stupidly cheap - not worth rebuilding unless the cyls are
not available.
>
>>>2. What's the cold/hot friction rating?
>>
>> You REALLY don't need that - it's not a race car.
>
>Let's just respectfully disagree on whether I should match or exceed the
>friction rating of the OEM brake shoe.
>

Didn't say you shouldn't. Just LISTEN to what I'm saying. BUY OE#M
SPEC and you GET OEM SPEC.

Listen to one of the most experienced wrenches on this newsgroup.
I've wrenched, I've been service manager, and I've taught the trade
at both secondary school and trade levels. Since 1969.
>In all my years with disc brakes, I've never bought a pad without knowing
>the friction rating ahead of time (usually FF or GG - but mostly FF) and I
>would never put on a pad that doesn't meet or exceed the OEM friction
>rating.
>
>> That's because it is generally not required for them (or you) to know
>> the rating.
>
>I agree that if I buy Toyota shoes from the Toyota dealership, that the
>friction rating will be correct as it will be the OEM friction rating,
>whatever that is.

ANd if you buy OEM SPEC aftermarket p[arts, they will br too. What
do you not understand about OEM SPEC????
>
>So if I buy from the dealer, I don't need to know anything because I would
>be trusting the dealer to give me the correct shoes.
>
>If I buy from Rock Auto, then I have to make the choice based on the
>friction rating first and foremost.
>
No, you choose OEM SPEC from a TRUSTED MANUFACTURER - no matter who
you buy from.

>It's not like friction isn't an important thing for a brake shoe.
>
>> If they are OEM quality they WILL beright.
>
>That is true. If that is true that is true.
>It's not always true even if they say it's true.
>I'll trust the two letters printed on the shoe itself.

And who says the friction material is accurately marked???? You have
no idea where the friction material came from, and if it meets the
spec stamped on it. It is almost CERTAINLY sourced fromChina - and
likely assembled on the shoe in China, regardless of the brand, and
China will counterfeit anything, given the chance. This is where a
"trusted manufacturer" comes in, as they do "quality control" and
assure the product meets spec.

You could have FF stamped on a thich chunk of cardboard on an "xyz"
brand part and it might not even meet the loweast spec.





>
>> They never do. Every one of those manufacturers produce oem quality
>> shoes, as wellas "economy" parts. You want OEM from Wagner, Centric,
>> Raybestos, or Bendix - not familiar with BeckArnley - but have heard
>> good things about their clutches - don't know PowerStop or Monroe -
>> and AC Delco was good when they were a part of GM - but I think it's
>> just a "brand" now - so no idea. No faith in anything Bosch myself -
>> but they MAY make a perfectly adequate product.
>
>You seem to be cognizant of "branding" (e.g., AT&T is just a brand name,
>it's no longer the same company as it was). Brands have value, but you
>know, from oil filters and batteries and tires, etc., that they brand all
>sorts of **** just to get more money for the same thing.
>
>Oil filters are notorious for that. You have to dig deeply to figure out
>who *really* makes that oil filter and what it looks like inside (e.g.,
>paper backflow valves, glued pleats, rubber versus paper stops, etc.).
>
>Branding is bull**** for the most part.
>
>What I care about are friction ratings.

They don't mean SQUAT if you can't trust the brand. See where I'm
coming from???
>
>After that, I care about stuff that I will never get the truth on, such as
>dusting, and noise, but that's just a fact of life that you can't get that
>information except from enthusiasts (e.g., Jurid FF pads dust like crazy
>but PBR FF pads don't ... go figure).

ANd over half the "enthusiasts" don't know **** from shinola - they
just listen to other "enthusiasts" or "armchair experts"
>
>The *first* spec on friction material is *always* friction.


>
>After that, you generally don't get the truth even though plenty of other
>stuff matters - but the friction rating is *printed* on ever shoe so it's
>unconscionable not to take it into account when purchasing shoes.
>

It's printed on the friction material by the manufacturer - can you
trust the manufacturer?????
If so, trust the manufacturer to provide OEM quality.
If not, the ratings don't mean ****.
>Otherwise you're just guessing.
>

Like I said - BUY QUALITY and you are not guessing any more than you
are doing it your way.
>> Every day of the year - I've NEVER , other than on these newsgroups
>> where "armchair experts" abound, heard of checking the friction rating
>> of replacement friction material for standard street vehicles - and
>> never did for navigational rallye vehicles either. That's a "track"
>> thing. Don't worry about it - just buy the "oem quality" or better
>> shoes.
>
>I've seen people put Wagner EE pads on a car spec'd for FF OEM pads, and
>they didn't even know it.

Correct - there was no difference undernormal driving conditions -
they likely didn't wear the same, but they stopped the car at all
legal speeds under normal load conditions
>
>They showed a picture of the pads and I had to tell them that the pads
>didn't even meet OEM specs.
>
>The sad thing is that they could have had Textar or Axxis pads for about
>the same price that were FF or even GG.
>

They bopught "economy" pads - and the whiz-bang enthusiast pads may
have been no better than what they bought,
>I'll repeat that the PRIMARY job of friction material is friction.
>Hence the friction coefficient is printed on all USA pads and shoes.



>
>There's a *reason* for that.
>You can certainly *trust* to luck - but I prefer to read the shoe.
>


Then go to the dealer and check the OEM parts they have in stock, and
you will KNOW the spec. Then order the OEM quality parts from Rock,
and if they are sub-standard, send them back. No rocket science. -
unless you've ****ed off the dealership parts department and they
won't do anything for you.

I had customers that I'd refuse to do anything for because they were
cheapassed pricks who you could never satisfy, and/or they were
know-it-all know-nothings that argued with everything you told them.

If you are that kind of person (and it's looking a bit that way
because you don't listen to experience - you "know better" )- then
good luck and it looks good on you.