On 12/04/2010 12:30, Zathras wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Apr 2010 15:00:53 +0100, (SteveH)
> wrote:
>
>> Agreed - 6-pots aren't the way forward. Everyone wants a small capacity
>> turbo these days.
>
> I'm not so sure..diesel has still got traction and the price equality
> between diesel and petrol helps diesel sales. I'm also not sure that
> the smaller turbo petrols (1.4-2.0 ish segment) will really give
> diesel that much to worry about in real world fuel economy.
>
> An example of this is that I can *easily* get 60mpg at 60mph out of my
> 3 litre. It's a big, heavy 4 door saloon but can still do 7.4 to
> 100kph and 144 top. The latest version of that engine (in the 330d)
> does 6.1(!!) to 100kph and 155 limited and has better fuel economy
> than mine. I just can't help feeling that even good turbo petrols are
> going to have a tough time pulling off both those tricks in a similar
> sized car.
>
>> In the BMW range - the biggest sellers are cars with the 2.0 4-pot
>> diesel - both in the 1, 3 and 5. (this lump is badged as a 116, 118,
>> 120, 318, 320 and 520, along with the X1 and X3 - don't think the X5 got
>> the 2.0 option, though)
>
> I don't really think Alfa can properly compete in the 2.0 diesel
> sector as they've not got the reputation, sales and service capacity
> and that market is saturated by more popular makes. Tends to make me
> think they should be pushing the envelope upwards and attempting to
> compete with the bigger boys. Hassle is that the reasons I gave for
> their failure in the lower segments would probably hinder them in the
> upper ones too. cf the 166. Some might risk buying some junk for
> 20,000UKP but fewer will for 40,000UKP. One escape would have been if
> the Mito had had a pretty front end..build up volume in smaller cars.
> Oh no, Fiat wouldn't allow that!
>
>>> What would be interesting would be if they could increase the current
>>> 5 to a 3 litre capacity to attempt to compete against the 3 litre
>>> German opposition. Pumping more and more fuel into the 2.4 is going to
>>> fail because many buy diesels for fuel efficiency and there is already
>>> increased competition from smaller capacity turbo petrol engines.
>>
>> Hmmmm, I think 2.4 is pushing the limits of the block already - remember
>> it was originally a 2.0 5-pot.
>
> Indeed, I forgot about that. I was thinking that the 2.4 was one
> cylinder added to a 1.9 block. Instead the 1.9 is probably one
> cylinder lopped off the 2.4.
>
>> I see Alfa in the Volvo / Saab / VW sector. Which appears to be dead on
>> its feet. They wouldn't want to enter the mainstream with Ford / GM and
>> the French, can't step up to the BMW / Mercedes class, so sit in that
>> middle ground.
>
> Yep..that's what I was getting at but didn't explain as well as you.
> The trouble is that they're in a no-man's land largely appealing to
> Alfa enthusiasts only.
>
>> Strangely, a 159 is a much more attractive package than a Mondeo - you
>> get a lot more car for your money - but that may be because Ford seem to
>> be intent on pricing themselves out of the market these days. (Of our
>> company car proposed list - Prius, Insight and Focus Econetic - the
>> Focus is the lowest power, lowest spec. and highest price).
>
> How many non-Alfisti even have Alfa on their radar now?
>
>>> I just wish Alfa could do better but with bugger all dealers and
>>> limited choice of premium saloon car it's an uphill task. I mean,
>>> where were Alfa when the premium saloon knocked the Mondeo into touch?
>>
>> Alfa were there at the start of the Mondeo's decline - think back to how
>> many 156s were shifted into the fleet market in the late 90s. Sadly the
>> 156 soldiered on for too long before the 159 came along - then Alfa
>> appeared to lose interest in fleet sales.
>
> I don't really know what happened there. I mean the best of the 156
> cars (IMHO) were in 2001 roughly when sales also peaked. There were
> tales of people only buying one Alfa then moving elsewhere due to
> dissatisfaction with some element(s) of Alfa ownership but I also
> wonder if Giugiaro messed up the aspirational 156 look - he did for
> me.
>
> I didn't look at the post facelift cars and say "I've got to have one
> of those" but I certainly did with the original Da Silva car before my
> wife told me to get one! She now much prefers the Beemer but my 7 year
> old daughter wants the Alfa back!
>
Out of the mouths of babes......