On 09/05/2013 08:27 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/5/2013 9:19 AM, jim beam wrote:
>> On 09/05/2013 02:02 AM, wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, September 4, 2013 7:13:40 AM UTC+3, jim beam
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 09/03/2013 08:48 PM, T0m $herman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 9/3/2013 10:20 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> On 09/03/2013 08:10 PM, T0m $herman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9/3/2013 8:23 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>> see above retard. now, stop avoiding the question -
>>>>>>>> go find a single
>>>>
>>>>>>>> rear engine car with less than 16" of crush space out
>>>>>>>> front.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> VW Type II?
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> <http://silodrome.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Volkswagen-Type-2-Kombi-Van.jpg>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> yeah, not the best. #12 in that diagram is a freakin'
>>>>>> unfunny JOKE.
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As a child in Quebec City, I spent time in the back of a
>>>>> VW Type IV -
>>>>
>>>>> snowmobile suit, mittens and boots were mandatory for
>>>>> any trip over 15
>>>>
>>>>> minutes long, even with the optional auxiliary heater.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> can't imagine. i had to wear every single piece of
>>>> clothing i owned,
>>>>
>>>> including socks over my shoes, and that was just in
>>>> oregon/seattle.
>>>>
>>> beats me how you survive in the giant air conditioner by
>>> the bay
>>>
>>> so you were implying never buy /read jobst book or that
>>> was not was
>>> you implying?
>>>
>>> I have other people do the wheel assembly and tensioning
>>> for me so I wonder
>>> about the need vs want vs just for laughs
>>>
>>> besides, I think I'll go mtb where wheel quality is of
>>> lesser importance
>>> than on a road bike
>>>
>>
>> unfortunately, i don't think there's any one magic bullet on
>> wheel building books. jobst's book will allow you to
>> calculate spoke length from first principles [although, not
>> allow for the elongation that happens as they tension],
>> lace, true and tension, but it'll also have you
>> over-tension, bend spokes unnecessarily, and he gives you a
>> very iffy "stress relief" method. you'll also have no
>> initial clue on how to position a hub so the label aligns
>> with the valve hole, as per conventional practice.
>>
>> gerdt schraner's book will solve the hub label position
>> problem, and have you stress relieve better, but you'll be
>> reliant on others for spoke length. his lacing method is
>> also unnecessarily complicated.
>>
>> sheldon brown's online guide is very good on lacing, hub
>> positioning, but repeats a lot of the garbage that jobst
>> bullied into him. and his stress relief method blows chunks.
>>
>> if you can find it online, the mavic wheelbuilding guide is
>> pretty good. absolutely the best stress relief method. but
>> it tells you nothing about spoke length calculation,
>> presumably because if you're rebuilding a mavic wheel,
>> you're already using spokes of predetermined length.
>>
>> so, "don't read that book in isolation" is my advice. and
>> if you're thinking you want to understand wheel mechanics
>> and don't already have a strong understanding of mechanical
>> principles and materials, it'll badly **** you up because a
>> lot of what he says is just plain wrong.
>>
>> as to building wheels for yourself, we've discussed this
>> before. there are definitely benefits to learning in that
>> most people don't have access to a good builder.
>> statistically, that includes you. once you can build
>> yourself, and you take the time to do it right, which most
>> shops seldom invest, you can have a wheel that remains true
>> and stable almost indefinitely. that's a rare beastie in
>> "other people built" wheels. my mtb wheels, complete with
>> unconventional rear spoking pattern*, have remained
>> completely true despite some fearful abuse. same for my
>> townie fixie on san fran's pot-holed, cable car tracked
>> streets.
>>
>>
>> * convention is that you go
>> trailing-leading-leading-trailing when looking at the four
>> hub sides, theory being that this allows the spokes with
>> increasing tension from drive torque to distort the wheel's
>> dish less. with a disk braked rear, if you're following
>> this principle, you need to lace
>> leading-trailing-leading-trailing because braking reaction
>> opposes drive torque. it's a little more complicated to
>> lace, but it's specified in the shimano hub manual.
>>
>>
>
> Good overview.
> That rear spoking pattern for disc/drum rears is also the preferered
> 'old guy' way for fronts, which need no particular bias.

interesting.

in that vein, old guys used to tie and solder. jobst went out of his
way to pour scorn on that practice, but doesn't do it in what is an
actually scientific way, just a pseudo-scientific way - i.e. the
scientific way is "objective, methods, results, conclusions". he just
leaps from method to conclusions, omitting actual results. yet he
blithely accepts spoke interleaving as "stabilizing the spoke structure"
with no analysis whatsoever.

[i know, broken record, but i really can't understand why other people
don't see this stuff when reading - you don't need to be an engineer to
have logical inconsistency slap you in the face.]


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