On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 08:34:42 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 00:28:05 -0500,
> Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>> No, they will sell you what you are willing to pay for. If you want
>> "economy" friction, they willsell you "economy" friction - which M<AY
>> have the same friction characteristics, but only last 50,000 miles, or
>> 30,000 instead of 175000.
>
>There is no such thing as OEM quality without having the OEM specs to
>compare against. Otherwise it's just a gimmick.

BULL****. You are an idiot.
>
>There's no way for you to know if it's OEM quality if it's not to OEM
>specs. Just because they *say* it in a billion web sites, doesn't mean it
>is.
>
>Specs are fact.
>Marketing words are bull****.

ANd your perception is also bull****.
>
>> The "monroe premium" shoes I have "on the shelf" for my ranger are EE
>> on all 4 shoes.
>
>EE sucks. Steel on steel has a coefficient of E. Seriously. Look it up.

The brakes work perfectly, and they are OEM spec. The shoes from ford
are the same.
>
>> The "certified" semi-metallic pads I have "onthe shelf" for the ranger
>> are EF
>
>Again, E is atrocious. Steel on stell is E. Look it up.
>F is good.

Again, they are perfectly serviceable. I can makethe antilock brakes
activate on dry pavement at any legal speed.
>
>Unfortunatly, there is a HUGE RANGE between E and F and even within E and F
>themselves. Such is the spec.
>
>But I'll tell you that I've never once in my life put a crappy E pad on any
>disc brake. E is absolutely horrifically terrible. It's no better than
>steel on steel.
>

ANd steel on steel will stop you dead in your tracks - t5he problem
with steel on steel is there is no "feel" - it is either all or
nothing.
>F is just getting started.
>
>I've never done drum brakes before though.

So you don't have a CLUE what you are spouting off about. You are
just like your idiot buddy who figured he had to do his own tire
service, balancing, and alignment because he knew better than everbody
else - nobody else was going to doit right - and yet he had to ask
stupid questions about everything on this newsgroup just so he could
argue with everyone else.
>
>> Since the rear brakes basically "go along for the ride" unless you
>> are hauling a load, the friction rating isn't TERRIBLY critical anyway
>
>This may very well be true because I must have replaced the fronts a few
>times already on this vehicle so I don't disagree with you. I'm going to do
>the front pads also, so I am looking for what their friction ratings are.
>
>> LikeI said - stupidly cheap - not worth rebuilding unless the cyls are
>> not available.
>
>The main problem with cylinders is that if I don't go OEM, I won't know the
>quality of the cylinders. So I may end up putting worse cylinders in, when
>their may be nothing wrong with the current ones.

BULL****!!!
>
>Then again, maybe all cylinders are just fine in terms of quality. I don't
>know. That's the homework I need to do as I've never done drums before.

You've never rebuilt wheel cyls before either - and you have no idea
what quality the rubbers you will be able to scrounge are either, as
the OEM market no longer supplies them - nor does the top tier
aftermarket.

Yoiu are an IDIOT if you believe otherwize.
>
>> Didn't say you shouldn't. Just LISTEN to what I'm saying. BUY OE#M
>> SPEC and you GET OEM SPEC.
>
>We don't disagree. We just don't agree on what you trust & what I trust.
>
>To me, IMHO, there is no such thing as "OEM SPEC". It's marketing bull****.
>
>Maybe it's oem spec. Maybe it's not. Who is to say?
>You trust marketing more than I do.
>
>I trust *real* specs. Like the friction coefficient.
>That's a real spec.
>Not marketing bull****.

If the spec is fudged, it bullshuit. You don't KNOW the spec is real.
You are an IDIOT.
>
>Why do you deny me the right to double check that what they call an OEM
>spec *is* the OEM spec?
>

I'm not denying you the right. Hire a materials inspection lab and
have them certify whatever product you buy before installing it. Make
shure the materials lab is certified and experienced in brake friction
material,and that all instruments have been properly calibrated to a
certified standard - otherwize you are just guessing and hoping. - you
do not KNOW anything.
>> Listen to one of the most experienced wrenches on this newsgroup.
>> I've wrenched, I've been service manager, and I've taught the trade
>> at both secondary school and trade levels. Since 1969.
>
>I don't disagree with anything you've said, and, in fact, I agree with
>almost everything you've said. Our disagreements are only in how we
>interpret things like scoring and what you term "oem spec".

You are an argumentative know-it-all kid (whatever your age)
>
>I completely comprehend what you're saying.
>The main difference is that I trust specs more than you seem to.

No, it's that you put more importance on knowi g the published spec,
and lest trust in the automotive aftermarket.
>And you seem to trust what I think is marketing bull**** more than I do.
>

You trust the "marketing bull****" of a stamped on friction rating,
not knowi g who stamped it on, and whether they are trustworthy or
not.

I trust major quality aftermarket suppliers to provide the correct
parts - and I have 50 years of experience backing me up. When I buy
OEM spec parts, I have no problems. If Iinstall "economy" parts, they
usually don't last as long and occaisionally do not perform as well.
>It's not a disagreement in principle as if it truly was OEM spec then it's
>OEM spec. I get that - but I don't believe it just because they said it.
>
>Have you seen oil filters taken apart? I have.
>They *all* meet OEM spec.
>But some are better than others.

And there are brands I trust, and brands I don't. Among those brands I
don't particularly trust, their PREMIUM products are top notch. It's
their "economy" product that is substandard. Case in point.
Orange fram filters are sketchy - but their "synthetic" filter - their
premium product - is perfectly adequate - as good as a standard WIX,
Purolator, Mptorcraft, Mopar orAC Delco filter.
>A lot better.
>
>Why would you deny me the right to double check that what they call an OEM
>spec *is* the OEM spec?

Like I said - GO FOR IT!!!. Hire a materials lab to confirm the spec.
>> ANd if you buy OEM SPEC aftermarket p[arts, they will br too. What
>> do you not understand about OEM SPEC????
>
>There is nothing you could ever say to me that I don't comprehend.
>Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Really.

You sure don't seem to be comprehending ANYTHING.
>
>It's not a matter of comprehension.
>
>It's a matter of trust in marketing bull**** or not.
>You trust what I call marketing bull**** much more than I trust it.

I trust major quality OEM manufacturers to provide what they say they
are providing. Ihave 50 years experience buying and installing parts.
(and troubleshooting the systems the parts are used in)
>
>That's the only difference that I can see where we disagree.
>
>If I buy a food that says "all natural", what the **** does that mean?
>If it says "more doctors recommend it", what the **** does that mean?
>
>Do you know that acetominophen (aka Tylenol) is freaking dangerous?
>The LD50 on Tylenol is so ****ing close to the therapeutic dose that it's
>dangerous stuff compared to Aspirin.

And asprin is al;so dangerous.

Car parts and pharmaceuticals are two different worlds.
>
>Yet there is the J&J campaign to convince idiot consumers that "more
>doctors recommend tylenol" which is a bull**** marketing statistic.
>
>Same here with the "meets OEM specs" bull****.
>Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't.
>
>What matters is the OEM spec.
>Not the marketing bull****.
>

You are not only an IDIOT but a PARANOID idiot. Lay off the weed!!
>We don't disagree.
>The only place we disagree is that you can't believe anyone would not
>believe in the marketing bull****.
>
>SO you say I don't "comprehend" but I do comprehend.
>It's trust. Not comprehension where we differ.
>


You are PARANOID
>Why would you deny me the right to double check that what they call an OEM
>spec *is* the OEM spec?
>
>> No, you choose OEM SPEC from a TRUSTED MANUFACTURER - no matter who
>> you buy from.
>
>Let's drop this as I AGREE with you that if it truly is "oem spec" then
>"Oem spec" is fine.
>
>Did you know Apple said that their phones were X Ghz but they halved that
>in a year? Companies don't always tell the truth.
>

Particularly crooked companioes like APPLE who have ALWAYS sold the
sizzle - not the steak.

>You seem to believe them.
>I don't.

I've NEVER believed Apple.
>
>That's the only difference. Why do you deny me the right to double check
>that what they call an OEM spec *is* the OEM spec?
>
Nobodiy is denying you the RIGHT to do anything. Go buy a set of OEM
shoes from Toyota - read the specs on the material., then go buy
whatever the heck you want. Knowbody's stopping you.
>> And who says the friction material is accurately marked????
>
>They have to meet the standard and I "presume" it's enforced by law.
>Maybe it's not - but I presume that the friction rating is correct.
>
>
You know what ASS U ME does - PREsume just does it faster.
>> You have
>> no idea where the friction material came from, and if it meets the
>> spec stamped on it. It is almost CERTAINLY sourced fromChina - and
>> likely assembled on the shoe in China, regardless of the brand, and
>> China will counterfeit anything, given the chance. This is where a
>> "trusted manufacturer" comes in, as they do "quality control" and
>> assure the product meets spec.
>
>What's odd is you believe a marketing bull**** claim of "meets oem spec"
>without it saying what that spec is, and yet you question a government
>mandated friction test under specified circumstances.
>
>I think that's odd in that it's reversed from normal logic.
>There's nothing wrong with your logic - as it has to do with trust.
>
>You trust marketing more than you trust the government mandate.
>I'm the opposite on trust.
>

Anything to dowith "government mandate" is open to abuse.

>I trust the friction test, specifically the SAE J866A test procedu
>https://netrider.net.au/threads/unde...ratings.88551/

No, you trust that the spec printed on the material by some Chinese
sweat-shop . Youhave NO PROOF the material meets the spec, or that
the actual testing was done to the standard.


>
>Here's a general description of the friction ratings CDEFGH
>http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-...ad-technology/
>
>> You could have FF stamped on a thich chunk of cardboard on an "xyz"
>> brand part and it might not even meet the loweast spec.
>
>What's odd is that you don't trust a government mandated standard test, but
>at the same time, you trust a mere marketing term on a web site.

What I don't trust is an unknown manufacturer over a known supplier
of quality parts. I don't even LOOK at the "marketingbull****" that
you seem to put a lot of weight on.
>
>That's fine. You're allowed to trust marketing more than government
>mandated specs - but it's the opposite for me on trust.
>
\ Government mandated specs are, to many, just a challenge to get
around them - particularly in the Fractured States of America, where
the president is a cheat and a liar and half the country wants to be
just like him.
>We only differ in what we trust.
>http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/~smacadof/DOTPadCodes.htm
>
>I can't run my own tests like the police did he
>https://www.justnet.org/pdf/EvaluationBrakePads2000.pdf

And thiose tests showed the EE pads CONSISTENTLY outperformed the FF
brakes pretty well across the board - with the FF brakes SEVERELY
underperforming in most cases.

The Dana Ceramic family was the only FF to outperform OEM, while
HawkHead outperformed on both Chevy and Ford - and Raybestos and
Carquest alsooutperformed on Ford in the panic stop test.


Across the board, EE brakes, on the whole, outperformed the ff, and
even the ee/gg combination - so what does your frictionrating tell
you????????????
>

What it tells ME is if I buy Raybestos, NAPA, CVarquest, or Dana (all
major OEM suppliers) brakes, I will equal or excede OEM performance -
doesn't make a bit of difference to me WHAT rating they have.

If I want slightly superior hot panic braking, at the expense of
poorer cold and medium temperature braking I should buy ceramics - and
this is STRICTLY for braking performance.

Now, from REAL WORLD experience, both myFord Aerostrs wentthrough
rotors like crazy - untill I put on NAPA's Carbon Metallics a set of
pads destroyed a set of rotors at about half of pad life - and I mean
TOTALLY DESTROYED, here in Southern Ontario. That came out at just
over a year.

When I went to NAPA Carbon Metallics, the same rotors lasted for TWO
FULL SETS of pads - and over 5 years - and I was able to actually lock
the front wheels on dry pavement (rear ABS only) - which NONE of the
other brakes were capable of doing.

Never looked at the friction rating - never needed to, because
friction rating doesn't tell the whole story (as your reference so
elegantly proved)

>> They don't mean SQUAT if you can't trust the brand. See where I'm
>> coming from???
>
>The brand is meaningless.
>What matters is what's *inside* the oil filter.
>The brand is just the paint on the outside.

Nope - The BRAND can tell you what to expect inside.
>
>We differ greatly in whom we trust.
>
>I trust in specs.
>You trust in brands.
>
>Neither one of us is wrong - we just trust differently.

I beg to differ.
>
>> ANd over half the "enthusiasts" don't know **** from shinola - they
>> just listen to other "enthusiasts" or "armchair experts"
>
>I agree with you that the 'boy racers' out there who think seafoam is a
>solution from God himself don't know much -


And there again you would be WRONG.

Seafoam is a VERY EFFECTIVE and HANDY TOOL for solving MANY fuel
related (and some other) problems - and has been for decades.

> but when it comes to "dusting",
>it's pretty reliable when everyone with the same make and model and year
>you have says that a certain Jurid pad will dust while the PBR pad won't
>dust (where PBR and Axxis are the same pad - it's only the marketing paint
>on the outside of the box that allows them to sell Axxis pads at a higher
>price than PBR).
>
>Do you see what I'm getting at?

Nope.
>
>I personally called the marketing organization for Axxis who,
>interestingly, has a different channel than PBR (even though they're the
>*same* pads!), and they gave me the full scoop.

Boy Racer brands - Boutique manufacturers - not handled by any major
distributor -
>
>Marketing bull**** 101.
Yup - Australian engineered, chinese manufactured mail-order/online
marketing excercise.
>
>You are not wrong in trusting marketing far more than I do, and I am not
>wrong in trusting in actual measured specs more so that marketing words.
>
>> It's printed on the friction material by the manufacturer - can you
>> trust the manufacturer?????

Not if I don't know the manufacturer - and as your example of thecop
car test so elequantly shows - the ratings, on the whole, don't mean
SQUAT - and beyond that they do NOT tell the whole story.
>
>What's funny is that you don't trust a government mandated SAE test, which
>has clear conditions, while you do trust some blurb in thousands upon
>thousands of web sites to be correct.

Who said I trust websites??? You are the one giving aznd asking for
web references and specs - not me.
>
>I find that odd but there's nothing wrong with how you trust web site
>blurbs more than I trust them, nor that you trust government mandated SAE
>tests less than I trust them.
>

I DON'T trust website blurbs - I trust EXPOERIENCE - and I have 50
years of it. - half of that actively involved with the profucts on a
daily basis - long before the internet.
>It's all how you and I handle trust.
>
>You trust marketing far more than I do.

NOpe - all you trust is "marketing " - because that's all the
friction ratings are. They are a "comparison tool" - and a poor one
at that, as your tests proved.
>
>I *know* that a PBR pad is far less money than an Axxis pad and yet,
>they're exactly the same pad - only marketed differently.


And both are LIKELY crap
>
>Wanna know something funny?
>They both have the same markings on the side.
>
>They *have* to have the same markings.
>It's the law.
>
>The one place they can't lie, is in the markings.

You think Chinese producers can't
lie??????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????


Ha Ha Ha!!!
>
>> If so, trust the manufacturer to provide OEM quality.
>> If not, the ratings don't mean ****.
>
>You trust marketing more than I do.
>
>> Like I said - BUY QUALITY and you are not guessing any more than you
>> are doing it your way.
>
>We don't disagree other than you think E is quality and I know E is almost
>as bad as it gets. E is no better than steel on steel for friction.
>
>> Correct - there was no difference undernormal driving conditions -
>> they likely didn't wear the same, but they stopped the car at all
>> legal speeds under normal load conditions
>
>E is no better than steel on steel.
>Look it up.
>I'm not joking.
>
>> They bopught "economy" pads - and the whiz-bang enthusiast pads may
>> have been no better than what they bought,
>
>Anyone who says "economy" or "performance" pads is falling prey to
>marketing bull****.

BULL****
>
>There is no such thing as an "economy" pad.

Damned right there is.
>
>There is a pad that has a certain spec and that's it.
>If you pay a lot for it or if you pay a little for it, the spec didn't
>change.

Damned right it dioes.

You can have 5 different FF pads - and one will be noisy as hell, one
will eat rotors for lunch, onde will corrode as soon as it SMELLS
salt, and another will turn to gravel the first time you get it hot -
ALL FF rated (or ef, or ee. or FE )

The fact it met the test requirements ONCE in the lab means NOTHING
about quality
>
>Remember, the "performance" Axxis pad is the *same* pad as the economy
>"PBR" pad.
>

The PR is NOT an "economy" AXXISS pad, it is a pad sold at a lower
markup by a different marketing company.

NAPA, WAGNER, Raybestos - ALL make more than one grade of pad -
prermium and economy being the upper and lower end - often with a few
in between.

You know squat.
>It's all marketing bull****.
>The numbers on the pad are *exactly* the same because they have to be.
>They're the same pad.

Boy, do YOU have a lot to learn.
>
>> Then go to the dealer and check the OEM parts they have in stock, and
>> you will KNOW the spec.
>
>You don't know the Toyota dealer in my town.
>They're assholes. They're the worst.
>They'd KILL me if I told them I just wanted to *look* at their pads.
>I'm serious (well, not about killing me).
>But they'd tell me to go take a hike.

Well, I have a feeling I'd be telling you the same.
>
>Only at a local auto parts store would they bother, but only if they don't
>have to open the package in a destructive way.
>
>Anyway, I appreciate your advice but that doesn't mean I trust what you
>trust which are the words "meets oem" more than I trust actual facts (which
>are measured and tested friction ratings).
>
>We each put trust in different things:
>a. You trust marketing more than specs
>b. I trust specs more than marketing
>
>Neither of us is right or wrong - it's just we differ in whom we trust.

Good luck!!