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Old January 11th 18, 03:45 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
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Posts: 61
Default Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 20:47:38 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

> BULL****. You are an idiot.


I think progress was made today with the realization that FF is probably
the Chase Test SAE J866a friction designation for the OEM shoes.
https://s18.postimg.org/wqilqasdl/to...n_material.jpg

> ANd your perception is also bull****.


My focus on specifications may be bull****, I agree, as it's a matter of
trust in the specification for the SAE J866a Chaste Test results.

Your focus on a billion web sites all accurately portraying "meets OEM
quality" is also subject to trust.

A web site may make all sorts of claims (say, for Axxis "performance"
pads), while another web site sells the base pads (say, for PBR "economy"
pads) where the numbers printed on the pads can tell me that they're the
exact same pad because marketing can say almost anything they want as long
as the pads fit.

Luckily, the numbers tell us if they're the same pads, or not:
AMECA Compliance List of Automotive Safety Devices:
Friction Material Edge Codes(TM), May 2011
<http://safebraking.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/AMECA-List-of-VESC-V-3-Brake-Friction-Material-Edge-Codes-May-20112.pdf>

> The brakes work perfectly, and they are OEM spec. The shoes from ford
> are the same.


That's great but you saw the mention that EE brake pads are only marginally
better than no brake pad at all.
http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/~smacadof/DOTPadCodes.htm

> Again, they are perfectly serviceable. I can makethe antilock brakes
> activate on dry pavement at any legal speed.


You have a friction coefficient at a variety of temperatures of somewhere
between 0.25u to 0.35u, which is a wide range.

I personally have chided *anyone* who uses EE pads, especially those who
did it without knowing that they were EE pads, becaues I would use FF pads
which have a measurably higher friction coefficient of somewhere between
0.35u to 0.45u, which itself is a huge range.

> ANd steel on steel will stop you dead in your tracks - t5he problem
> with steel on steel is there is no "feel" - it is either all or
> nothing.


I agree with you, as always, since I've *seen* rotors worn to their ribs,
and the cars were still being driven on the road.

All I'm saying, and all I ever said, was that I have never put EE pads or
shoes on any vehicle and I hope that I never will.

FF is fine for me as long as that meets OEM specs.

> So you don't have a CLUE what you are spouting off about.


We're talking about the SAE J688a Chase Test whose results are printed on
*every* brake pad and shoe sold in the USA. This information has been
around for many years. Here is the PDF from 2011 for example:

> If the spec is fudged, it bullshuit. You don't KNOW the spec is real.
> You are an IDIOT.


I'm sorry if my adult conversation with you has offended you.
We don't disagree on the technology.

We simply disagree on the level of trust.

For example, you trust EE pads far more than I do (and that's fine).
You also trust that every web site accurately portrays "meets OEM specs"
far more than I do, and that's fine.

Apparently you don't trust the SAE J866a Chase Test results, which are
printed on every brake pad and shoe - where I do.

We don't disagree in concept - we merely have different trust levels in
different sets of data.

> I'm not denying you the right. Hire a materials inspection lab and
> have them certify whatever product you buy before installing it.


I agree with that that what really matters is real-world experience, where,
you'll note, this report looks at EE and FF pads in Police Cruisers in
depth:
https://www.justnet.org/pdf/EvaluationBrakePads2000.pdf

> Make
> shure the materials lab is certified and experienced in brake friction
> material,and that all instruments have been properly calibrated to a
> certified standard - otherwize you are just guessing and hoping. - you
> do not KNOW anything.


Actually, I do.
If we trust in the SAE J8866 Chase Test results, we do know a *lot* about
the friction at various temperatures. And, if we match the entire code, we
know *who* actually manufactured the pads/shoes (e.g., we'd know that some
are just rebranded versions of others).

So, it seems you may be under estimating the huge amount of knowledge there
is in the direct result of SAE J866a tests printed on every brake pad and
shoe sold in the USA today.

We can tell if two pads from two different brands are the same pad, and we
can tell who actually makes every pad sold in the USA today.

It's all here, all 176 pages of it:
<http://safebraking.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/AMECA-List-of-VESC-V-3-Brake-Friction-Material-Edge-Codes-May-20112.pdf>

> You are an argumentative know-it-all kid (whatever your age)


I'm far younger than you are and not as experienced as you are.
I don't have any experience with drum brakes.
Like many here, I have an engineering degree but it's not in this field.

> And there are brands I trust, and brands I don't. Among those brands I
> don't particularly trust, their PREMIUM products are top notch. It's
> their "economy" product that is substandard. Case in point.
> Orange fram filters are sketchy - but their "synthetic" filter - their
> premium product - is perfectly adequate - as good as a standard WIX,
> Purolator, Mptorcraft, Mopar orAC Delco filter.


Brands are a marketing gimmick.
The 176 page document proves that.

> You sure don't seem to be comprehending ANYTHING.


I apologize that you feel I don't comprehend your statements.
I think we have a difference in trust.
You don't trust SAE J866a Chase Test results; I do.
You trust marketing branding; I don't.

It's not a matter of comprehension - but a matter of levels of trust.

> I trust major quality OEM manufacturers to provide what they say they
> are providing. Ihave 50 years experience buying and installing parts.
> (and troubleshooting the systems the parts are used in)


VW was making cars for a long time, but they screwed the consumer.
Apple is an extremely trustworthy brand, but they screwed the consumer.
Wells Fargo is a great brand, but they were fabricating accounts.

What do you have against me being able to read the numbers on a brake shoe
to tell if two brake shoes are either identical in all ways, or if they are
made by the same (or different) manufacturer?

Why would you hate me having that information?

> You are not only an IDIOT but a PARANOID idiot. Lay off the weed!!


I'm sorry if you think that being able to read the numbers printed on a
brake shoe in order to tell if that shoe is identical to another shoe or
made by the same company makes me a paranoid idiot.

I'm sorry if knowing the SAE J866a Chase Test friction coefficient of a
friction material makes me a paranoid idiot.

There's nothing I can say to you if you think that, which will change your
mind. We must just disagree.

You seem to think information about friction for friction materials is bad.
I seem to think it's a fundamental first order data for any friction pad.

We will just have to disagree.

> You are PARANOID


I'm sorry you think I'm paranoid for wanting to know what the SAE J866a
Chase Test friction coefficient is for the OEM shoes and for the shoes that
I put on the vehicle.

One thing that this "paranoia" will get me, and that's the fact that I hope
to *never* put on any vehicle the same pads you put on yours, since EE pads
are, as you know, only marginally better in friction than no pads at all.

> Particularly crooked companioes like APPLE who have ALWAYS sold the
> sizzle - not the steak.


Well - we do *agree* on one thing!

> I've NEVER believed Apple.


See! There *is* common ground between us!

> Nobodiy is denying you the RIGHT to do anything. Go buy a set of OEM
> shoes from Toyota - read the specs on the material., then go buy
> whatever the heck you want. Knowbody's stopping you.


Actually, at $157 a set, I can't ask the owner to pay that much for an SAE
J866a Chase Test FF shoe when I may be able to get an SAE J866a Chase Test
FF shoe from the *same* manufacturer for around 20 or 30 bucks.

It's all in the branding that the 176-page PDF decodes for us.

> You know what ASS U ME does - PREsume just does it faster.


I'm younger than you, so I don't know all those clever repartee's yet.

> Anything to dowith "government mandate" is open to abuse.


Agreed. But you don't have any proof, do you, that the SAE J866a Chase Test
is being abused?

Even if it was abused, the standards require all pads to state their actual
company of origin no matter what brand.

Why do you hate me having this information of who actually made the shoe?

> No, you trust that the spec printed on the material by some Chinese
> sweat-shop . Youhave NO PROOF the material meets the spec, or that
> the actual testing was done to the standard.


Just a moment ago you repeatedly claimed I was paranoid.
Now you claim that the SAE J866a standards as reported in this 176-page PDF
are all faked?

AMECA Compliance List of Automotive Safety Devices:
Friction Material Edge Codes(TM), May 2011
<http://safebraking.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/AMECA-List-of-VESC-V-3-Brake-Friction-Material-Edge-Codes-May-20112.pdf>

Where's your shred of proof?

> What I don't trust is an unknown manufacturer over a known supplier
> of quality parts. I don't even LOOK at the "marketingbull****" that
> you seem to put a lot of weight on.


Why don't you trust that the number on pad 1, if it's the same as the
number on pad 2, even if the brand is completely different, is the same
pad?

I'll open a separate discussion for the police report, as you bring up some
very good points when you assert the EE pads outperformed the FF pads.
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