PERTRONIX IGNITION
 

RECENTLY INSTALLED A PERTRONIX IGNITION
IN OUR 1965 6V BEETLE. WHEN STARTER IS CRANKING
IT WILL NOT START----BUT WHEN KEY IS RELEASED
IT STARTS UP ----ANY IDEAS
IT DOES HAVE A HARD START KIT INSTALLED--NOT SURE IF THIS HAS
SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE
PROBLEM.. CAR RUNS FINE AFTER IT GETS STARTED
THANKS, GINO

PERTRONIX IGNITION
 

gino wrote:

> RECENTLY INSTALLED A PERTRONIX IGNITION
> IN OUR 1965 6V BEETLE. WHEN STARTER IS CRANKING
> IT WILL NOT START----BUT WHEN KEY IS RELEASED
> IT STARTS UP ----ANY IDEAS
> IT DOES HAVE A HARD START KIT INSTALLED--NOT SURE IF THIS HAS
> SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE
> PROBLEM.. CAR RUNS FINE AFTER IT GETS STARTED
> THANKS, GINO
>

GINO: Your CAPS LOCK key is stuck ON.

It sounds like a bad Ignition switch.
You may be able to tell by watching the OIL/GEN lights.
They should remain lit during cranking. If they both go out
in the cranking position, the switch is bad.

Speedy Jim
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/

PERTRONIX IGNITION
 

Hi there Gino,

I've been through this recently, here's what I learned...

Like you, I installed a Pertronix unit in a 6V car. My problem was
that while the starter was cranking, the voltage would drop below the
5V required to trigger the unit so no spark was generated. Once the
key was let off the starter, the car would often (but not always)
start right up - i.e. it would only start after, but not during,
cranking. So if you have a voltage drop during cranking, you
experience this problem.

If you connect a jumper wire from the battery cable at the regulator
to the positive terminal on the coil (just a length of wire with an
alligator clip on each end), you'll probably find it starts up
immediately (but obviously you can't leave it like this or your coil
would receive power all the time and burn up). But it can help with
your diagnosis. Try and measure the voltage at the positive terminal
on the coil while the engine is cranking over and see what its
dropping down to.

The supplier of my pertronix unit told me that the module needs 5V to
'trigger' the spark, so on a 6V system you can't afford to lose ANY
voltage at all, even with a 6V system in absolutely tiptop shape its a
pretty close thing. Less than 5V and you just get nothing - which is
why it doesn't fire up. With breaker points, even with a voltage drop,
you still get some class of spark and its enough to get started with.

I found a replacement battery helped a lot (but my old battery was
VERY tired), but has not cured the problem completely. If the car has
been sitting for a couple of days or is cold, I still have to use the
jumper wire trick. If the car is warm and has been out and about
during the day, it starts up fine with just the ignition switch.

I also found that running an additional earth cable from the lower
starter motor mounting bolt to the battery earth post helped a bit
too. Make sure your gearbox to chassis earth strap is in good shape
and that the connections are clean. In fact go over all your old
wiring and ensure the connections and grounds are clean and bright -
this seems to be mandatory for a functional 6V system anyway.

In my case, the ignition switch wasn't the problem but my reading (and
Speedy Jim's suggestion above) indicated that the switch is often a
cause of voltage drop or resistance in the starting circuit. They just
get old.

I have found that the jumper wire from the regulator to the coil
starts the car immediately every time and I am now thinking about
trying to hardwire it in permanently with a 'momentary-on' switch so
that I can deliver the extra squirt of volts required by the pertronix
just during cranking to start the car and then release it without
having to dive back into the engine bay whenever I want to start the
car. Its just not a good look ;-)

Even with the difficulties in running the electronic ignition on a 6V
system, I'm delighted with its performance and wouldn't want to go
back to points. As you say, once the engine is running it feels strong
and smooth and the timing is rock steady.

Good luck!

PERTRONIX IGNITION
 

On Apr 1, 8:40?pm, "Dangermouse" > wrote:

This will really get Jan going....

You can hook a Ford 6V regulator (acts like the 12v hard start relay)
near your starter and you don't worry about dropping below 6 volts.


Mario
Vintage Werks resto

> I've been through this recently, here's what I learned...
>
> Like you, I installed a Pertronix unit in a 6V car. My problem was
> that while the starter was cranking, the voltage would drop below the
> 5V required to trigger the unit so no spark was generated. Once the
> key was let off the starter, the car would often (but not always)
> start right up - i.e. it would only start after, but not during,
> cranking. So if you have a voltage drop during cranking, you
> experience this problem.
>
> If you connect a jumper wire from the battery cable at the regulator
> to the positive terminal on the coil (just a length of wire with an
> alligator clip on each end), you'll probably find it starts up
> immediately (but obviously you can't leave it like this or your coil
> would receive power all the time and burn up). But it can help with
> your diagnosis. Try and measure the voltage at the positive terminal
> on the coil while the engine is cranking over and see what its
> dropping down to.
>
> The supplier of my pertronix unit told me that the module needs 5V to
> 'trigger' the spark, so on a 6V system you can't afford to lose ANY
> voltage at all, even with a 6V system in absolutely tiptop shape its a
> pretty close thing. Less than 5V and you just get nothing - which is
> why it doesn't fire up. With breaker points, even with a voltage drop,
> you still get some class of spark and its enough to get started with.
>
> I found a replacement battery helped a lot (but my old battery was
> VERY tired), but has not cured the problem completely. If the car has
> been sitting for a couple of days or is cold, I still have to use the
> jumper wire trick. If the car is warm and has been out and about
> during the day, it starts up fine with just the ignition switch.
>
> I also found that running an additional earth cable from the lower
> starter motor mounting bolt to the battery earth post helped a bit
> too. Make sure your gearbox to chassis earth strap is in good shape
> and that the connections are clean. In fact go over all your old
> wiring and ensure the connections and grounds are clean and bright -
> this seems to be mandatory for a functional 6V system anyway.
>
> In my case, the ignition switch wasn't the problem but my reading (and
> Speedy Jim's suggestion above) indicated that the switch is often a
> cause of voltage drop or resistance in the starting circuit. They just
> get old.
>
> I have found that the jumper wire from the regulator to the coil
> starts the car immediately every time and I am now thinking about
> trying to hardwire it in permanently with a 'momentary-on' switch so
> that I can deliver the extra squirt of volts required by the pertronix
> just during cranking to start the car and then release it without
> having to dive back into the engine bay whenever I want to start the
> car. Its just not a good look ;-)
>
> Even with the difficulties in running the electronic ignition on a 6V
> system, I'm delighted with its performance and wouldn't want to go
> back to points. As you say, once the engine is running it feels strong
> and smooth and the timing is rock steady.
>
> Good luck!

PERTRONIX IGNITION
 

Dangermouse wrote:

> Hi there Gino,
>
> I've been through this recently, here's what I learned...
>
> Like you, I installed a Pertronix unit in a 6V car. My problem was
> that while the starter was cranking, the voltage would drop below the
> 5V required to trigger the unit so no spark was generated. Once the
> key was let off the starter, the car would often (but not always)
> start right up - i.e. it would only start after, but not during,
> cranking. So if you have a voltage drop during cranking, you
> experience this problem.
>
> If you connect a jumper wire from the battery cable at the regulator
> to the positive terminal on the coil (just a length of wire with an
> alligator clip on each end), you'll probably find it starts up
> immediately (but obviously you can't leave it like this or your coil
> would receive power all the time and burn up). But it can help with
> your diagnosis. Try and measure the voltage at the positive terminal
> on the coil while the engine is cranking over and see what its
> dropping down to.
>
> The supplier of my pertronix unit told me that the module needs 5V to
> 'trigger' the spark, so on a 6V system you can't afford to lose ANY
> voltage at all, even with a 6V system in absolutely tiptop shape its a
> pretty close thing. Less than 5V and you just get nothing - which is
> why it doesn't fire up. With breaker points, even with a voltage drop,
> you still get some class of spark and its enough to get started with.
>
> I found a replacement battery helped a lot (but my old battery was
> VERY tired), but has not cured the problem completely. If the car has
> been sitting for a couple of days or is cold, I still have to use the
> jumper wire trick. If the car is warm and has been out and about
> during the day, it starts up fine with just the ignition switch.
>
> I also found that running an additional earth cable from the lower
> starter motor mounting bolt to the battery earth post helped a bit
> too. Make sure your gearbox to chassis earth strap is in good shape
> and that the connections are clean. In fact go over all your old
> wiring and ensure the connections and grounds are clean and bright -
> this seems to be mandatory for a functional 6V system anyway.
>
> In my case, the ignition switch wasn't the problem but my reading (and
> Speedy Jim's suggestion above) indicated that the switch is often a
> cause of voltage drop or resistance in the starting circuit. They just
> get old.
>
> I have found that the jumper wire from the regulator to the coil
> starts the car immediately every time and I am now thinking about
> trying to hardwire it in permanently with a 'momentary-on' switch so
> that I can deliver the extra squirt of volts required by the pertronix
> just during cranking to start the car and then release it without
> having to dive back into the engine bay whenever I want to start the
> car. Its just not a good look ;-)
>
> Even with the difficulties in running the electronic ignition on a 6V
> system, I'm delighted with its performance and wouldn't want to go
> back to points. As you say, once the engine is running it feels strong
> and smooth and the timing is rock steady.
>
> Good luck!
>

Aha! Methinks you have hit it!

By chance I have a sketch of what's needed:
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/schem/IGN_RLY.GIF

The relay of course needs to be a 6V coil.
A small one with a contact rating of 10 Amps would be adequate.

No extra wires need to be run; use the existing Blk wire
in the loom which comes out in the engine bay to operate the relay.

An automotive-style circuit breaker could be inserted in the battery lead.

Speedy Jim
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/

PERTRONIX IGNITION
 

> - Show quoted text -
You can hook a Ford 6V regulator (acts like the 12v hard start relay)
near your starter and you don't worry about dropping below 6 volts.


Is this not the <Hard Start Kit> that Gino mentions in his post?

His vehicle has obviously already had a voltage drop problem in the
past which would have led to the hard start relay being fitted?
Doesn't seem to have eliminated the problem though...

I appreciate that some folks view the hard start relay as a bandaid-
fix over an existing problem and that one is better off fixing the
cause rather than the symptom but I have been over my wiring and done
all that I can do to refresh it. Short of a new wiring harness I don't
know what else I can try. I wonder if 40 yr old wires just have an
increased resistance?

I would fit a 6V hard start relay if I could find one.....! Anybody?

PERTRONIX IGNITION
 

> Aha! Methinks you have hit it!

> By chance I have a sketch of what's needed:http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/schem/IGN_RLY.GIF


By golly, that looks like just the ticket. This looks like a solution
all right, relay instead of switch.

Nice.

I'll give this a go then, thanks once again Speedy Jim ;-)

Gino, hope this solves your problem too.


> An automotive-style circuit breaker could be inserted in the battery lead.

Is this just in case the relay fries some day? What strength would be
appropriate?

PERTRONIX IGNITION
 

Dangermouse wrote:

>>Aha! Methinks you have hit it!
>
>
>>By chance I have a sketch of what's needed:http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/schem/IGN_RLY.GIF
>
>
>
> By golly, that looks like just the ticket. This looks like a solution
> all right, relay instead of switch.
>
> Nice.
>
> I'll give this a go then, thanks once again Speedy Jim ;-)
>
> Gino, hope this solves your problem too.
>
>
>
>>An automotive-style circuit breaker could be inserted in the battery lead.
>
>
> Is this just in case the relay fries some day? What strength would be
> appropriate?
>
>

Well, it will protect against a short circuit (wire grounds to engine)..

BTW, I have a small stock of NOS 6V relays available.
Small charge to anyone on this NG. E-mail me.

Speedy Jim
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/

PERTRONIX IGNITION
 

> BTW, I have a small stock of NOS 6V relays available.
> Small charge to anyone on this NG. E-mail me.


Speedy Jim, you have mail.

:-)

PERTRONIX IGNITION
 

Speedy Jim wrote:
> Dangermouse wrote:
>
>>> Aha! Methinks you have hit it!
>>
>>
>>
>>> By chance I have a sketch of what's
>>> needed:http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/schem/IGN_RLY.GIF
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> By golly, that looks like just the ticket. This looks like a solution
>> all right, relay instead of switch.
>>
>> Nice.
>>
>> I'll give this a go then, thanks once again Speedy Jim ;-)
>>
>> Gino, hope this solves your problem too.
>>
>>
>>
>>> An automotive-style circuit breaker could be inserted in the battery
>>> lead.
>>
>>
>>
>> Is this just in case the relay fries some day? What strength would be
>> appropriate?
>>
>>
>
> Well, it will protect against a short circuit (wire grounds to engine)..
>
> BTW, I have a small stock of NOS 6V relays available.
> Small charge to anyone on this NG. E-mail me.
>
> Speedy Jim
> http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/
>


For anyone still following this, present stock of relays has
been depleted :-(

ALSO: important note- When using a relay to "boost" Coil voltage,
a small diode (1 Amp rating) should be inserted in the Blu lead to the
dash "GEN" light.

Without the diode, feedback will occur *after* the key has been
switched Off which will keep the engine running...and running...

This can also happen on 12V cars which have been equipped with
electronic ignition.

The wiring for a 6V Generator car looks like:
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/schem/ALT5A.GIF

Wiring for a 12V car with alternator looks like:
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/schem/ALT4.GIF

Jim