How to balance FFB
 

Eureka, I finaly found the Holy Grail of FFB, : ).
The problem with FFB forces is slack. I found the way to balance
that slack. It's done with the Overall slider. On my system the slider
should be at 138%.
This way everything works as intended. I tried this with different
Spring/Damper/Centering Spring combinations, an it works with all of them,
even with 0/0/0, or with 0/0/100.
Of course, you'll drive car the best if FOV is natural.

How to balance FFB
 

Mario Petrinovic:
> Eureka, I finaly found the Holy Grail of FFB, : ).
> The problem with FFB forces is slack. I found the way to balance
> that slack. It's done with the Overall slider. On my system the slider
> should be at 138%.
> This way everything works as intended. I tried this with different
> Spring/Damper/Centering Spring combinations, an it works with all of them,
> even with 0/0/0, or with 0/0/100.
> Of course, you'll drive car the best if FOV is natural.

Ok, that was wrong, : ).
I found out what was wrong with my FFB. I kept sensitivity of axes
in Logitech profiler at the default value of 50%, while it actually has to
be at 100%. This was what messed up my FFB.

How to balance FFB
 

On Sun, 8 Jan 2012 20:15:49 +0100, "Mario Petrinovic"
> wrote:

>Mario Petrinovic:
>> Eureka, I finaly found the Holy Grail of FFB, : ).
>> The problem with FFB forces is slack. I found the way to balance
>> that slack. It's done with the Overall slider. On my system the slider
>> should be at 138%.
>> This way everything works as intended. I tried this with different
>> Spring/Damper/Centering Spring combinations, an it works with all of them,
>> even with 0/0/0, or with 0/0/100.
>> Of course, you'll drive car the best if FOV is natural.
>
> Ok, that was wrong, : ).
> I found out what was wrong with my FFB. I kept sensitivity of axes
>in Logitech profiler at the default value of 50%, while it actually has to
>be at 100%. This was what messed up my FFB.

I'm pretty sure the default value in the Logitech profiler is 100%.

How to balance FFB
 

FolkGT:
>Mario Petrinovic:
>>Mario Petrinovic:
>>> Eureka, I finaly found the Holy Grail of FFB, : ).
>>> The problem with FFB forces is slack. I found the way to balance
>>> that slack. It's done with the Overall slider. On my system the slider
>>> should be at 138%.
>>> This way everything works as intended. I tried this with
>>> different
>>> Spring/Damper/Centering Spring combinations, an it works with all of
>>> them, even with 0/0/0, or with 0/0/100.
>>> Of course, you'll drive car the best if FOV is natural.
>>
>> Ok, that was wrong, : ).
>> I found out what was wrong with my FFB. I kept sensitivity of axes
>>in Logitech profiler at the default value of 50%, while it actually has to
>>be at 100%. This was what messed up my FFB.
>
> I'm pretty sure the default value in the Logitech profiler is 100%.

You are wrong. It is very easy to check this, there is the
"Defaults" button there, just click on it, and it will give you default
settings.
It looks like those "default" settings are general in Logitech
driver for such *type* of axes (it means, for jostick, mause, trackball, and
similar axes), so probably 50% would work with the least faults ("default")
on all those axes. But, on a FFB it is ESSENTIAL that this should be at
100%, so this is the first thing a racing game developer should mention, in
general. So, before talking about anything, graphics, sound, any possible
adjustment, and especially controler, and even FFB adjustment, first thing
that develepor should mention is to put this sensitivity to 100%, because
without this everything else becomes senseless. In driving, you cannot grip
corner well, if this isn't near 100%.

How to balance FFB
 

On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:30:44 +0100, "Mario Petrinovic"
> wrote:

>FolkGT:
>>Mario Petrinovic:
>>>Mario Petrinovic:
>>>> Eureka, I finaly found the Holy Grail of FFB, : ).
>>>> The problem with FFB forces is slack. I found the way to balance
>>>> that slack. It's done with the Overall slider. On my system the slider
>>>> should be at 138%.
>>>> This way everything works as intended. I tried this with
>>>> different
>>>> Spring/Damper/Centering Spring combinations, an it works with all of
>>>> them, even with 0/0/0, or with 0/0/100.
>>>> Of course, you'll drive car the best if FOV is natural.
>>>
>>> Ok, that was wrong, : ).
>>> I found out what was wrong with my FFB. I kept sensitivity of axes
>>>in Logitech profiler at the default value of 50%, while it actually has to
>>>be at 100%. This was what messed up my FFB.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure the default value in the Logitech profiler is 100%.
>
> You are wrong. It is very easy to check this, there is the
>"Defaults" button there, just click on it, and it will give you default
>settings.

My bad... you are correct. I'd never even seen this dialog box before. To
access, click on "steering wheel" and then you can see the axes
properties. You can do this for brake and steering wheel also.

Thanks Mario for pointing this out to me, but I'm hesitant to make any
changes from the default of 50%, because I'm concerned that 50% might mean
"linear", which is desirable.

How to balance FFB
 

FolkGT:
>Mario Petrinovic:
>>FolkGT:
>>>Mario Petrinovic:
>>>>Mario Petrinovic:
>>>>> Eureka, I finaly found the Holy Grail of FFB, : ).
>>>>> The problem with FFB forces is slack. I found the way to
>>>>> balance
>>>>> that slack. It's done with the Overall slider. On my system the slider
>>>>> should be at 138%.
>>>>> This way everything works as intended. I tried this with
>>>>> different
>>>>> Spring/Damper/Centering Spring combinations, an it works with all of
>>>>> them, even with 0/0/0, or with 0/0/100.
>>>>> Of course, you'll drive car the best if FOV is natural.
>>>>
>>>> Ok, that was wrong, : ).
>>>> I found out what was wrong with my FFB. I kept sensitivity of
>>>> axes
>>>>in Logitech profiler at the default value of 50%, while it actually has
>>>>to be at 100%. This was what messed up my FFB.
>>>
>>> I'm pretty sure the default value in the Logitech profiler is 100%.
>>
>> You are wrong. It is very easy to check this, there is the
>>"Defaults" button there, just click on it, and it will give you default
>>settings.
>
> My bad... you are correct. I'd never even seen this dialog box before. To
> access, click on "steering wheel" and then you can see the axes
> properties. You can do this for brake and steering wheel also.
>
> Thanks Mario for pointing this out to me, but I'm hesitant to make any
> changes from the default of 50%, because I'm concerned that 50% might mean
> "linear", which is desirable.

Well, do whatever you want, but with FFB forces used the way they
are supposed to be used (at their default values, all at 100%), with
correctly set screen perspective (correct FOV, as well as correct hight of
screen), I tested thoroughly, all the values from 60% to 88%, and finaly I
tried 100%, and 99%, and it is perfectly clear that, the higher you put it,
the better you are able to grip corners. If you try this by yourself you
will gain understanding of how sensitivity affects FFB. 100% is the only
correct value, 99% is CLEARLY wrong. When you go lower, the lack of
sensitivity gives you slack. This slack you can correct by rising Overall
FFB setting. For me, at 50% sensitivity I had to rise Overall to 143% to
overcome slack. And this just gives you ballanced slack, but still you don't
have the right grip in corner, because the lack of sensitivity messes up the
feel for grip. It is fairly understandable when you try all those values.
This sensitivity simply must be 100%, because FFB simply is (it has to be)
TOO sensitive, this is the only way to use it, it cannot work correctly any
other way. When you feel a force, it simply must be spot on (to feel grip),
and the lack of sensitivity is losing that "spot on", and that way you lose
grip. If you change it by only 1% (so, instead od 100% you use 99%), it
messes things so much, that it becames undrivable. With lower values it
becames more drivable, simply because this mess transverse into a slack, so
you drive by slack tension (so, this very little slack of 99%, which creates
a big mess, widens, and transferes into a slack tension).

How to balance FFB
 

On 10/01/2012 16:49, FolkGT wrote:
> I'm hesitant to make any
> changes from the default of 50%, because I'm concerned that 50% might mean
> "linear", which is desirable.

50% is indeed linear, above this is exponential and below logarithmic.

I seem to recall earlier profilers actually displayed the graph of how
the controller profile was being mapped. Non linear can help with brake
pedal mappings (iRacing include this option in sim) linear seems pretty
good for steering though. 100% is making it much more sensitive around
the centre, could be why it feels like it is removing any deadzone though.

How to balance FFB
 

Tony R:
> FolkGT:
>> I'm hesitant to make any
>> changes from the default of 50%, because I'm concerned that 50% might
>> mean "linear", which is desirable.
>
> 50% is indeed linear, above this is exponential and below logarithmic.
>
> I seem to recall earlier profilers actually displayed the graph of how the
> controller profile was being mapped. Non linear can help with brake pedal
> mappings (iRacing include this option in sim) linear seems pretty good for
> steering though. 100% is making it much more sensitive around the centre,
> could be why it feels like it is removing any deadzone though.

Hm, for linearity I use the word "linearity". For sensitivity I use
the word "sensitivity".
Well, if you ask me, this setting WORKS like "sensitivity".
I mean, what's the point in using word "sensitivity" for linearity.
"Sensitivity" is here with a reason, although it could be "linearity", it
works, and is designed to be "sensitivity".
IOW, maybe with your brake pedal the change of linearity is useful.
Well, for FFB, I would say, use it as "sensitivity".
Although, I doubt that it is "linearity" even for brake pedal.
Because, whole time I used 50% for brake pedal. Well, now I changed to 100%,
and pedal really became a bit more sensitive, but not at all non-linear.
This goes for gas pedal, as well.
On some place I've read that in Logitech profiler this doesn't have
anything to do with linearity, but instead the posibility to change
linearity is left for game developer to install it in the game. Which we
really do have in iRacing, and really, changing the "sensitivity" of brake
pedal in profiler, only changes sensitivity, not linearity, nothing like
what happens with the setting in iRacing.

How to balance FFB
 

Mario Petrinovic:
> Tony R:
>> FolkGT:
>>> I'm hesitant to make any
>>> changes from the default of 50%, because I'm concerned that 50% might
>>> mean "linear", which is desirable.
>>
>> 50% is indeed linear, above this is exponential and below logarithmic.
>>
>> I seem to recall earlier profilers actually displayed the graph of how
>> the
>> controller profile was being mapped. Non linear can help with brake pedal
>> mappings (iRacing include this option in sim) linear seems pretty good
>> for
>> steering though. 100% is making it much more sensitive around the centre,
>> could be why it feels like it is removing any deadzone though.
>
> Hm, for linearity I use the word "linearity". For sensitivity I use
> the word "sensitivity".
> Well, if you ask me, this setting WORKS like "sensitivity".
> I mean, what's the point in using word "sensitivity" for linearity.
> "Sensitivity" is here with a reason, although it could be "linearity", it
> works, and is designed to be "sensitivity".
> IOW, maybe with your brake pedal the change of linearity is useful.
> Well, for FFB, I would say, use it as "sensitivity".
> Although, I doubt that it is "linearity" even for brake pedal.
> Because, whole time I used 50% for brake pedal. Well, now I changed to
> 100%, and pedal really became a bit more sensitive, but not at all
> non-linear. This goes for gas pedal, as well.
> On some place I've read that in Logitech profiler this doesn't have
> anything to do with linearity, but instead the posibility to change
> linearity is left for game developer to install it in the game. Which we
> really do have in iRacing, and really, changing the "sensitivity" of brake
> pedal in profiler, only changes sensitivity, not linearity, nothing like
> what happens with the setting in iRacing.

Well, I fiddled a bit. I would say that 50% of sensitivity is
definitely not sensitive enough. OTOH, I would also say that trying to
compensate not enough, or too much of sensitiviti with above 100%, or below
100% of Overall is not a way to go. I would say that the right way to go is
to find the right sensitivity, which doesn't have to be 100%. I'll see, I
have to test more of it.

How to balance FFB
 

On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 23:54:48 +0000, Tony R
> wrote:

>On 10/01/2012 16:49, FolkGT wrote:
>> I'm hesitant to make any
>> changes from the default of 50%, because I'm concerned that 50% might mean
>> "linear", which is desirable.
>
>50% is indeed linear, above this is exponential and below logarithmic.
>
>I seem to recall earlier profilers actually displayed the graph of how
>the controller profile was being mapped. Non linear can help with brake
>pedal mappings (iRacing include this option in sim) linear seems pretty
>good for steering though. 100% is making it much more sensitive around
>the centre, could be why it feels like it is removing any deadzone though.

That is my understanding. A value of 50% for steering sensitivity =
linear response. Reducing the value would cure steering that is too
twitchy around the center, and increasing it would do the opposite.