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Jonas Schneider

April 1st 17 12:09 AM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

For years, I have been buying tires from TireRack, opting to mount them and
static balance them myself at home.

This week, I called TireRack, to order a set of four passenger tires, where
I picked a traction A, temperature A, and treadwear 400 tire, with load
range 99 and speed W, where the price, shipped to my door, was $375 all
included.

I had a friend over who suggested Simple Tire, so trying them just to
compare, I was shocked that the same set of four tires, same brand, size,
model, and everything, shipped to my door was just under three hundred
bucks.

Tires are commodities, where, in general, commodities are already selling
for the lowest price, where volume makes huge differences, but we already
know TireRack has huge volume.

How can Simple Tire basically sell the same tire commodity for a whopping
twenty percent less, all things considered? Twenty percent is huge for a
commodity.

Have you found that tire prices are dropping drastically?

Jack Meoff

April 1st 17 01:04 AM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

Jonas Schneider > wrote in
:

> This week, I called TireRack, to order a set of four passenger tires,
> where I picked a traction A, temperature A, and treadwear 400 tire,
> with load range 99 and speed W, where the price, shipped to my door,
> was $375 all included.
>
> I had a friend over who suggested Simple Tire, so trying them just to
> compare, I was shocked that the same set of four tires, same brand,
> size, model, and everything, shipped to my door was just under three
> hundred bucks.
>

So you got suckered. It won't be the last time. You should be used to it
by now.

Jonas Schneider

April 1st 17 01:15 AM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On 01 Apr 2017 00:04:42 GMT, Jack Meoff > wrote:

> So you got suckered. It won't be the last time. You should be used to it
> by now.

Unless you're trolling, I don't understand how "I got suckered".

I know tires rather well, at least based on the numbers printed on the
sidewall. Probably as well as you do, where we both probably know tires
better than most people do.

Considering that all of us buy tires for a couple of cars just about once
every couple of years, at the very least, that's a LOT of tires we buy over
the decades.

Figure, over fifty years of buying tires, at four tires per car for every
two years for two cars, that's about one hundred tires each of us buy in
our lifetimes.

I've been buying from TireRack for a very long time, and they were great.

Whom do you buy your tires from online?

Percival P. Cassidy[_2_]

April 1st 17 01:25 AM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 03/31/2017 07:09 PM, Jonas Schneider wrote:
> For years, I have been buying tires from TireRack, opting to mount them and
> static balance them myself at home.
>
> This week, I called TireRack, to order a set of four passenger tires, where
> I picked a traction A, temperature A, and treadwear 400 tire, with load
> range 99 and speed W, where the price, shipped to my door, was $375 all
> included.
>
> I had a friend over who suggested Simple Tire, so trying them just to
> compare, I was shocked that the same set of four tires, same brand, size,
> model, and everything, shipped to my door was just under three hundred
> bucks.
>
> Tires are commodities, where, in general, commodities are already selling
> for the lowest price, where volume makes huge differences, but we already
> know TireRack has huge volume.
>
> How can Simple Tire basically sell the same tire commodity for a whopping
> twenty percent less, all things considered? Twenty percent is huge for a
> commodity.
>
> Have you found that tire prices are dropping drastically?

It must depend on the particular tires: I just compared the price of
Michelin Premier A/S at TireRack.com and SimpleTire.com. TireRack.com
was cheaper including Road Hazard Protection and shipping than
SimpleTire.com with free shipping but without Road Hazard Protection.

Perce

Meanie

April 1st 17 02:27 AM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 3/31/2017 8:15 PM, Jonas Schneider wrote:
> On 01 Apr 2017 00:04:42 GMT, Jack Meoff > wrote:
>
>> So you got suckered. It won't be the last time. You should be used to it
>> by now.
>
> Unless you're trolling, I don't understand how "I got suckered".
>
> I know tires rather well, at least based on the numbers printed on the
> sidewall. Probably as well as you do, where we both probably know tires
> better than most people do.
>
> Considering that all of us buy tires for a couple of cars just about once
> every couple of years, at the very least, that's a LOT of tires we buy over
> the decades.
>
> Figure, over fifty years of buying tires, at four tires per car for every
> two years for two cars, that's about one hundred tires each of us buy in
> our lifetimes.
>
> I've been buying from TireRack for a very long time, and they were great.
>
> Whom do you buy your tires from online?
>

Usually Costco, but not online.

What is the overall cost when you factor in the mounting and balance?

Jonas Schneider

April 1st 17 04:12 AM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 21:27:33 -0400, Meanie > wrote:

>> Whom do you buy your tires from online?
>
> Usually Costco, but not online.

What I love about Costo, for tires, is that they are the *cheapest* (by
far) for returning the old tires, where they're only one dollar plus sales
tax (which is a strange thing to pay a sales tax to *return* a tire for
recycling!).

They take *any* tire, so I've even cleaned up neighbor's back yards for
them, and hosed down the tires, and Costco took them at about $1.08 per
tire.

What I hate about Costco is that they only have a limited selection of
tires, where locally they only have Michelin & Bridgestone (and sometimes
Goodyear).

What I love about Costco is that everything is included in the $15 mounting
price, which includes mounting and balancing and valves and nitrogen and
even free rotations every 6K miles and road hazard repairs (within the life
of the tread, prorated if not fixable).

What I hate about Costco is that you have to get there a day before you
were born just to get in line and wait along with the rest of the world in
front of you (especially during their specials, one of which is going on at
this very moment, which is the $70 coupon for a set of 4 tires).

Their prices are just ok.

> What is the overall cost when you factor in the mounting and balance?

As mentioned above, Costco is $15 per tire for mounting and balancing, and
$1 per tire for recycling - but Costo will NOT mount and balance someone
else's tires.

Mounting and balancing prices vary hugely, but on average where I live,
mounting and dynamic balancing is anywhere between about $18 and $28 bucks
- so I can figure on about $20 per tire.

If you don't ask the right questions, you can pay a lot for a non
road-force balancing, but in my experience, expensive balancing is rarely
needed (although there's nothing wrong with road force balancing). What's
wrong is paying road-force balancing prices for standard dynamic balancing!
:)

Nonetheless, as I noted in the first post, I do my own mounting and I sort
of do my own balancing, in that I have all the basic Harbor Freight
equipment
a. Bead breaker (which is has to be modified slightly to actually work)
b. Mounting tool (which has to be bolted down or you'll go nuts)
c. Static balancer (the hard part is finding the right shape weights)
d. Air compressor, hoses, fittings, valves, valve tools, patch tools, etc.

Of course, all that equipment cost me about three hundred bucks, which at
twenty bucks a tire, took the first 15 tires just to break even, but I'm
past that stage now.

While I fix a flat at home (patching from the inside when I'm not on the
road - otherwise I plug from the outside when I'm on the road), I mostly
just rotate the tires, roughly on the changes of seasons.

While I'm fully familiar with rotation patterns for unidirectional tires, I
still swap sides, except in the winter, where it rains out here. In the
winter, I make sure the tires go back on unidirectionally.

I'm also familiar with match mounting where I match mount the wheels to the
tires, given whatever markings (usually red or yellow dots, and sometimes
both) the manufacturer provides on the tires (where I look it up each time
since the meaning is general, but still manufacturer specific).

Every once in a while I get a vibration after mounting. Not much, but a
vibration nonetheless. I take the wheels off and move them, one by one to
the front left (drivers side) where the steering wheel feels it the most
(although, in practice, the front right is about the same sensitivity).

In a really bad case, I'd remount them but I've never had to do that yet.
Just moving the wheels from front to rear generally pinpoints the vibrating
tire.

For example, when I move a vibrating wheel & tire assembly to the rear, the
vibration drops dramatically, so it's pretty easy to isolate which tires
are statically balanced but not dynamically balanced.

What I've found, in practice, is that out of balance wheels is actually
rather rare, if they're nicely statically balanced.

Once in about every dozen mounts (or so) they're out of balance dynamically
even though they're perfect statically. I have OEM alloy wheels which, I
think, helps with the balance since steel wheels, I'm told, vary much more
than do the alloy wheels.

Given that a typical tire shop probably changes hundreds of tires a day,
that means that dozens of tires in a day are out of balance for them, so it
makes sense for THEM to dynamically balance EVERY wheel, but for someone
who takes his time at home to statically balance on decent wheels, my
experience is that very few wheels actually need dynamic balancing.

To answer your question, in practice, I only pay for mounting and balancing
on every dozenth wheel assembly or so. So all I pay for are the tires,
since most of the time I get free shipping (saving, for example, what Tire
Rack charges, which is generally around $15 to $18 per tire just for
shipping by UPS ground, with each tire being about 25 pounds).

In the end, the total out-of-pocket cost for me is just the cost of the
tires and the buck each for 1-1/2-inch valves and the cost of the stick-on
weights (about fifty cents per wheel roughly).

Including all those costs, my latest set of ultra high performance (UHP)
tires cost $70 each, which nets me directional all-season tires with a
reasonably low profile and straight-line wet traction on asphalt greater
than 0.54g, straight-line wet traction on concrete greater than 0.38g.

The curb weight of my sedan is 3500 pounds, and the OEM tires were load
range 95 (6,084 pounds), while these new tires are 99 (6,836 pounds), which
is more than enough for a safety factor (at the standard max of 42psi).

The OEM tires were speed index H (130mph) wherease these new tires are
speed index V (149mph), which again indicates a better tire over the OEM.
The speed index is really a temperature index, where these tires are UTQG
rated at temperature A (over 115mph), which is as good as the UTQG gets.

Likewise, the UTQG for traction is AA which is as good as UTQG gets, and
the friction coefficient on my new tires is 0.89 based on a calculation off
the treadwear (u = 2.25/Treadwear**0.15).

That treadwear is 5 times that of the standard government uniroyal test
tire in the Texas tests by the manufacturer. The manufacturer is allowed to
underrate that number, but they're not allowed to overrate it, so, it's a
believable number, although it never directly correlates to miles because
the conditions in the real world differ greatly from the test conditions.

While someone said I was cheated by paying about $70 all included for each
tire, I think I got a pretty good deal, although I just looked and realized
I could have saved a few bucks had I ordered from a different online web
site (tires-easy.com) but I don't know what their shipping costs would have
been.

burfordTjustice[_2_]

April 1st 17 12:39 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how canthey do it?)

On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 23:09:22 +0000 (UTC)
Jonas Schneider > wrote:

> but we already
> know TireRack has huge volume.

what is your evidence?

Red Hymen

April 1st 17 01:17 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 03/31/2017 07:09 PM, Jonas Schneider wrote:
> For years, I have been buying tires from TireRack, opting to mount them and
> static balance them myself at home.
>
> This week, I called TireRack, to order a set of four passenger tires, where
> I picked a traction A, temperature A, and treadwear 400 tire, with load
> range 99 and speed W, where the price, shipped to my door, was $375 all
> included.
>
> I had a friend over who suggested Simple Tire, so trying them just to
> compare, I was shocked that the same set of four tires, same brand, size,
> model, and everything, shipped to my door was just under three hundred
> bucks.
>
> Tires are commodities, where, in general, commodities are already selling
> for the lowest price, where volume makes huge differences, but we already
> know TireRack has huge volume.
>
> How can Simple Tire basically sell the same tire commodity for a whopping
> twenty percent less, all things considered? Twenty percent is huge for a
> commodity.
>
> Have you found that tire prices are dropping drastically?

The local tire shop matches TireCrack and SimpletonTire prices, labor is
extra but it's very reasonable.

They also take appointments so you don't have to wait in line for
hours. On the off-chance a problem shows up, they take care of that too.

Jonas Schneider

April 1st 17 04:32 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 08:17:53 -0400, Red Hymen > wrote:

> The local tire shop matches TireCrack and SimpletonTire prices, labor is
> extra but it's very reasonable.

Matching always made no sense to me, but maybe it makes sense to you since
a *lot* of people swoon over price matching.

Matching gets you absolutely nothing.
Worse, you may end up with less.
Rarely will you end up with more.

If you told me the local shop *beat* the price of TireCrack &
SimpletonTire, that would be something to swoon over.

But merely matching?
What good is merely matching?

What do you get out of a match?
Absolutely nothing.

> They also take appointments so you don't have to wait in line for
> hours. On the off-chance a problem shows up, they take care of that too.

OK. Now you're talking about "something" and not "nothing".
You're talking about "time".

Somehow, you "save time" by "price matching" at the local tire installer.

Saving "time" is ok, but I do my own mounting and balancing, so, saving
"time" isn't in my equation (since it costs me more time just to file this
thread than it does to mount a tire).

Is the only thing you save time?
If the shop merely matches your online price, then what are they giving
you?

They're giving you nothing by way of price, and, worse, you may get less
than nothing.

So let's compare the two situations.

a. You have chosen, out of all the tires out there, a specific tire and a
price shipped to either your door, or to the door of the online installer
(if you don't install them yourself at home).

b. Let's say you chose the tire that I chose, which is this exact ti
$66 final cost including shipping, tax, mounting, balancing, valve, &
recycling for Hancook Ventus V2 Concept2 H457 P225/55R16

c. Here are some rough prices on the net for that exact ti
http://i.imgsafe.org/fc51390d4c.gif

d. You print that out and go to your local tire shop.

e. Do they have that tire in stock?

f. Almost certainly not. Do they still price match? Dunno.

g. Let's assume they price matched, and they can "get" the tire.

h. Now you lost all that time you saved.

i. Two days later, the tire is in the shop, and you go down for your second
appointment.

j. They mount and balance your tires and you pay them, plus you pay their
price for a new valve, and you pay their price for recycling, and they try
to upsell the heck out of you on road-hazard warrantees and free lifetime
alignments, all of which you resist successfully.

k. Then they tax you and you walk out the door satisfied.

But what did you gain?

Jonas Schneider

April 1st 17 04:34 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 07:39:33 -0400, burfordTjustice
> wrote:

>> but we already
>> know TireRack has huge volume.
>
>
> what is your evidence?

That's a good question.
I'm not sure *why* you ask, since it's a decent assumption.
But if your point is that I have no idea what their volume is, you are
completely correct.

I simply *assumed* that all the big online tire retailers have 'huge'
volume.

Googling:
https://www.google.com/search?q=onli...+retail+volume

Here is a Tire Industry Monthly article titled "Online Tire Retailing"
https://www.automotive-iq.com/tires/...tire-retailing
- Europe is 25-million tires a year (of 250 million tires per year)
- Set to double by 2017 (the article was written in 2014)
- So we can assume 50 million tires a year (or so) in Europe
- Germany is 4.2-million online tires per year (in 2014).

The guy says the same logical things that I do, which is that most people
don't select the tire (he says 70% of the selection is done by the tire
dealer, and not by the consumer).

He also says most people are completely ignorant when it comes to buying
tires (and I agree with him). He also says nowadays, there is a wealth of
information about tires (I disagree with him, although there is a wealth of
information PRINTED ON THE SIDEWALL of the tires).

Closer to home, here is a north american fact sheet for sales of tires:
http://www.moderntiredealer.com/uplo...issue-2015.pdf

From 2010 to 2014 it seems the USA replacement (aka not OE) tire numbers
are about 200 million per year.

On page 52 of that document, we find the average profit margin on passenger
car replacement tires to be around 25%, which, interestingly, isn't in the
range of a typical commodity (which would be lower in most cases).

Page 54 sys there are 30K independent tire dealers in the US, and finally,
on the penultimate page, we get the percentage of retail-market sha
- 60% of tires sold in the USA go to the 30K independent tire dealers
- 13% are sold by "mass merchandisers" <== I presume Tire Rack is in here
- 9% are sold by "warehouse clubs"
- 8% by auto dealerships
- 7% by tire-company owned stores
- 2% by "miscellaneous outfits"

While 13% of 200-million tires is about 26-million tires that are sold,
presumably, online, that doesn't tell me what Tire Rack sells by way of
volume.

Digging further, I find this:
http://www.tirereview.com/an-inside-...effort-part-i/
An Inside Look at Goodyear?s Direct Online Sales Effort

Which says that Goodyear only recently learned that "consumers expect to be
able to buy tires online". Sheesh. I've been buying online ever since
online existed, so I guess consumers are behind the curve on this method of
buying tires.

There are some good industry reports here, but I didn't pay for them:
http://valuationresources.com/Report...ireDealers.htm

Looking at what Tire Rack publishes as figures:
https://www.tirerack.com/content/tir...ytirerack.html

Edmunds isn't much help on the volume either:
https://www.edmunds.com/car-care/onl...re-buying.html

So all I can tell you, after that quick research, is that in Europe and in
the USA, combined, that's 50 million online tires sold per year.

Of that 50 million, Tire Rack has an unknown percentage.

Ed Pawlowski

April 1st 17 07:17 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 4/1/2017 11:32 AM, Jonas Schneider wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 08:17:53 -0400, Red Hymen > wrote:
>
>> The local tire shop matches TireCrack and SimpletonTire prices, labor is
>> extra but it's very reasonable.
>
> Matching always made no sense to me, but maybe it makes sense to you since
> a *lot* of people swoon over price matching.
>
> Matching gets you absolutely nothing.
> Worse, you may end up with less.
> Rarely will you end up with more.
>
> If you told me the local shop *beat* the price of TireCrack &
> SimpletonTire, that would be something to swoon over.
>
> But merely matching?
> What good is merely matching?
>
> What do you get out of a match?
> Absolutely nothing.

Depends on the tire shop. My dealer will come close, but may not match.
What he does is give me good service year round no matter what the
problem is. If you never ever have a tire problem, price is a big
factor but when you cut a sidewall, bend a rim, damage a valve, my
local guy will fix you up on the spot and if your tire is not in stock
you will still leave with four tires and a spare.

Keeps money in the neighborhood too. If I'm spending $600+ on a set of
tires, another 20 or 30 bucks is not a deal killer for superior service.

Jonas Schneider

April 1st 17 09:28 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 19:20:18 GMT, Tekkie? > wrote:

> Oh yeh, I thought you were the Harbor Fright guy...

I'm apparently a shill for Harbor Freight, in addition to SimpleTire.
:)

Jonas Schneider

April 1st 17 09:28 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 19:16:38 GMT, Tekkie? > wrote:

> I don't buy tires online. The local dealer is much cheaper and has free
> mounting & balancing.

You'd have to pick a tire and price that your "local dealer" charges, but I
highly suspect that it's not even close to true that your dealer is much
cheaper than online tires.

I can't prove that statement without information about your dealer and
prices, but one argument is that you'd have a hard time naming *anything*
that is cheaper at a brick-and-mortar store than it is online.

The only "additional" charges onlines are shipping, which I agree, for
tires, is appreciable though, at anywhere between zero (which is what I pay
for shipping) to about $18 to $20 for ground shipping per tire.

> Tire Rack is now a public TV sponsor so in my
> *opinion* is another mark against it.

What is a "public tv sponsor"?

> Their "installers" are just above
> marginal.

Agree with you on the fact the tire-rack "recommended installers" are just
one step ahead of criminal.

However, I'll wager your tire dealer is one of them perhaps?
https://tires.tirerack.com/tires/Lis...d%20Installers
https://www.tirerack.com/installer/Installer.jsp

Jonas Schneider

April 1st 17 09:48 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 14:17:54 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>> What do you get out of a match?
>> Absolutely nothing.
>
> Depends on the tire shop.
> My dealer will come close, but may not match.

My argument is simple.
If all you gain is a "price match", then you gained nothing.

Of course, there are things you "can" gain, like shipping costs, or down
time, or convenience, or keeping the shop in business, or making friends,
or free coffee, or whatever, but my point is that matching price gains you
absolutely nothing by way of price.

> What he does is give me good service year round no matter what the
> problem is.

What you're saying is fair enough that, while price matching gains you
nothing, keeping your business "in the family" gains you "good service".

I have nothing against good service, but since I mount and balance my own
tires, I can't think of why I would need that good service?

But if good service is really what you were after, then "price matching"
isn't part of that equation, as making the local brick-and-mortar guy lower
his price to online rates isn't likely to make him want to give you better
service, is it?

> If you never ever have a tire problem, price is a big
> factor but when you cut a sidewall, bend a rim, damage a valve, my
> local guy will fix you up on the spot and if your tire is not in stock
> you will still leave with four tires and a spare.

We're all old men right?
Are we really all that afraid of a "tire problem"?

What's the absolute worst thing that can happen to a tire?

The worst thing is a non-repairable injury, right?
What's so bad about that?

All you do is put the spare tire on, and fire up a web browser, and order a
new tire shipped to your house or to the local tire installer.

Twenty bucks paid to the local installer, and your worst fears have been
repaired with a brand new tire.

Likewise, if you damage a valve, the worst thing is that you have to pay a
buck fifty or two bucks at the local auto parts store for a new valve,
which can be both removed and installed from the outside, if you know how.

Even if it has to be removed from the inside, what's the big deal?
It's a two-dollar tire valve after all (about twenty-five cents to fifty
cents online in bulk).

Now bending a rim is similar in that you pop on the spare wheel and then
you ship your rim out to be straightened, which happens a *lot* with my
soft alloy OEM rims, for example. It's one hundred bucks to have your rim
rightened.

Even your local tire shop is gonna send out your rim to be straightened,
since he's not likely to have the equipment himself.

My argument is that it's just a wheel and a tire and a valve and some air,
and you already have a spare, so, you're not risking anything by not having
a shop that loves you to death.

Even if the local shop hated you, they'd still put mount a new tire and
valve and throw away the old tire for about twenty bucks, so you're not
even saving anything by having a guy love you to death.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see the risk here.

> Keeps money in the neighborhood too. If I'm spending $600+ on a set of
> tires, another 20 or 30 bucks is not a deal killer for superior service.

What you're saying is basic supply and demand economics. If you are flush
with money, then money isn't important to you. Nothing wrong with that as
it's the most basic of all economic theories.

To spend 600 dollars on four tires is astronomical.
What kind of car has replacement tires that are $150 each?

I'm not at all saying you can't find tires that *sell* for $150 each,
because they are all over the place. But if you take the OEM spec for your
tires, and if you can't find a tire that meets that OEM spec, and that
isn't a *lot* less than $150, then you didn't look all that hard.

And that's OK.
If money isn't important, then there's no difference to you between $400
and $600. That's normal for anyone flush with money by the way, so it's not
abnormal in the least.

However, you're NOT getting the best price:performance deal at 600 bucks
for a set of four tires. That's fine, if you're flush with money, simply
because money isn't important to anyone who has a lot of it.

I don't, so I buy the best price:performance I can get, and I mount and
balance my own wheels. I save money and get a better job that way.

But back to the point, if you're price matching to give your best friend
the business, then that's fine - but you gain nothing whatsoever on the
price by price matching.

Jonas Schneider

April 1st 17 09:58 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 19:22:04 GMT, Tekkie? > wrote:

> +1 on that!

I think I figured out how they can do it.

In researching how many tires TireRack sells in a year, I found that the
average online profit on a tire is about $25.

On a typical ultra high performance tire which is, say, $75, that means
that 1/3 the cost is pure profit online.

If they sell that UHP tire for $100 at a local brick-and-mortar tire shop,
then their advantage can be 1/2 the price (although they probably have
higher costs too).

Everything depends on the math, but I have to rethink my theory that tires
are a commodity, since commodities aren't sold generally for anything near
1/3 over cost.

It's basic economics for a manufacturer to have a marketing team turn a
commodity into a specialty item, and then they can command such prices.

So, I guess, for the most part, tires are a "specialty item" since selling
for 1/3 over cost is not how commodities sell.

Percival P. Cassidy[_2_]

April 1st 17 10:13 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 03/31/2017 11:12 PM, Jonas Schneider wrote:

>>> Whom do you buy your tires from online?
>>
>> Usually Costco, but not online.
>
> What I love about Costo, for tires, is that they are the *cheapest* (by
> far) for returning the old tires, where they're only one dollar plus sales
> tax (which is a strange thing to pay a sales tax to *return* a tire for
> recycling!).
>
> They take *any* tire, so I've even cleaned up neighbor's back yards for
> them, and hosed down the tires, and Costco took them at about $1.08 per
> tire.
>
> What I hate about Costco is that they only have a limited selection of
> tires, where locally they only have Michelin & Bridgestone (and sometimes
> Goodyear).
>
> What I love about Costco is that everything is included in the $15 mounting
> price, which includes mounting and balancing and valves and nitrogen and
> even free rotations every 6K miles and road hazard repairs (within the life
> of the tread, prorated if not fixable).
>
> What I hate about Costco is that you have to get there a day before you
> were born just to get in line and wait along with the rest of the world in
> front of you (especially during their specials, one of which is going on at
> this very moment, which is the $70 coupon for a set of 4 tires).

When Costco has a good deal on tires, I order them at Costco.com,
specifying the warehouse where I want them installed. They email me to
let me know that the tires have arrived, and I call to make an
appointment for installation, and I do my other shopping while they
install the tires.

And from time to time they have had a 1 cent per tire installation
special -- available only if the tires are ordered at costco.com.

Perce

Jackson Brown

April 1st 17 10:17 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 4/1/2017 11:32 AM, Jonas Schneider wrote:
> Saving "time" is ok, but I do my own mounting and balancing, so, saving
> "time" isn't in my equation (since it costs me more time just to file this
> thread than it does to mount a tire).
>
> Is the only thing you save time?
> If the shop merely matches your online price, then what are they giving
> you?
>
> They're giving you nothing by way of price, and, worse, you may get less
> than nothing.

The key is to have the proper tools to mount and balance a set of tires. Most people don't nor do they care to wrestle 4 tires onto rims using makeshift spoons...and they're still left with balancing and disposing of the old tires.

Personally, I just have my friendly neighborhood Ford dealer do the whole job.

Jonas Schneider

April 1st 17 11:26 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 17:17:20 -0400, Jackson Brown > wrote:

>> They're giving you nothing by way of price, and, worse, you may get less
>> than nothing.
>
>
> The key is to have the proper tools to mount and balance a set of tires.

You need the following, which costs around $300 overall
1. Air compressor, hoses, fittings, chucks, pressure gauges
2. Bead breaker
3. Tire dismounting & mounting tool
4. Static bubble balancer
5. Clip on weights (steel wheels) or stick on weights
6. Assorted tire irons, valve core tools, patch tools

> Most people don't nor do they care to wrestle 4 tires onto rims
> using makeshift spoons...

While it's true that most people don't want to mount and balance a tire,
they do spend far more than the tools cost to have someone else "wrestle 4
tires onto rims".

At 20 bucks a tire for mounting and balancing, and at 300 bucks for a
complete set of tools, that's about three years elapsed time for the tools
to pay for themselves in cost (assuming a two car family who changes tires
on each car every two years).

The tools pay for themselves in convenience the very first day, since you
can patchplug a repairable puncture in your own garage, which is mighty
convenient (ask me how I know).

> and they're still left with balancing and disposing of the old tires.

Disposing of tires is trivial. You drive them to Costco, pay the buck per
tire, and they're gone. Or you drive them to any tire shop, pay whatever
their price is, and they're gone.

Balancing is mostly feared by people who have never once balanced their own
wheels. Balancing, to them, is 99% fear and 1% logic.

What's the absolute worst thing that's gonna happen if your tires are
imbalanced when brand new?

The people who are afraid of balancing, and those who swear that *every*
wheel needs to be "road force balanced" are the same people who have never
balanced a tire in their lives.

In other words, they don't know what they're talking about, where they can
only fear the unknown.

There's nothing wrong with being fearful, but guess what happens to those
tires six months, ten months, twelve months, two years into the driving
cycle?

Are they still balanced?
If not - what happened to all that unbalanced fear?

> Personally, I just have my friendly neighborhood Ford dealer
> do the whole job.

While there's nothing wrong with being overly scared of tires, you seem to
be unduly scared, if the fact you go to a dealer for such things is any
indication of your state of mind.

Most people wouldn't go to the car dealer for mounting and balancing tires,
so you're probably highly unusual, in that the only reason most people go
to the dealer is to get parts that can't be gotten elsewhere without
ordering.

Of course, if money is no object, and if fear is the main object, then the
dealer is the "safest" place to go. I understand that tires scare a lot of
people.

But the next time you have someone else mount your tires, consider that the
guy who just got arrested for setting the fire that collapsed that Atlanta
interstate bridge is quoted in the Washington Post today as having stopped
off under the bridge with his two other buddies to smoke crack before he
went into to work at a tire shop.

"Eleby told investigators he regularly passes through the area on the way
to his job at a nearby tire shop".
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...85-in-atlanta/

Ed Pawlowski

April 2nd 17 01:50 AM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 4/1/2017 4:48 PM, Jonas Schneider wrote:

>
>> What he does is give me good service year round no matter what the
>> problem is.
>
> What you're saying is fair enough that, while price matching gains you
> nothing, keeping your business "in the family" gains you "good service".
>
> I have nothing against good service, but since I mount and balance my own
> tires, I can't think of why I would need that good service?

Very few of us mount our own tires. I can't justify the investment when
I buy a set of tires every18 months at best.

>
> But if good service is really what you were after, then "price matching"
> isn't part of that equation, as making the local brick-and-mortar guy lower
> his price to online rates isn't likely to make him want to give you better
> service, is it?

Let's call it "good value". I don't mind paying a little more at times
but I certainly don't want to get gouged. I try to check out prices
before buying anything. Lowest price is not always the cheapest buy.

>
> What's the absolute worst thing that can happen to a tire?
>
> The worst thing is a non-repairable injury, right?
> What's so bad about that?
>
> All you do is put the spare tire on, and fire up a web browser, and order a
> new tire shipped to your house or to the local tire installer.
>
> Twenty bucks paid to the local installer, and your worst fears have been
> repaired with a brand new tire.

Ask the guy that has a flat spare because he never check it.

>
> To spend 600 dollars on four tires is astronomical.
> What kind of car has replacement tires that are $150 each?
>
> I'm not at all saying you can't find tires that *sell* for $150 each,
> because they are all over the place. But if you take the OEM spec for your
> tires, and if you can't find a tire that meets that OEM spec, and that
> isn't a *lot* less than $150, then you didn't look all that hard.

You'd be right if I was driving my '62 Corvair with 13" wheels. I need
245/45R18 and cheap ones ar $92 and go up to $260. I drive enough to
justify a good tire over one that just has to go 2 miles to the grocery
store.

>
> However, you're NOT getting the best price:performance deal at 600 bucks
> for a set of four tires. That's fine, if you're flush with money, simply
> because money isn't important to anyone who has a lot of it.

Questionable. I want a good tire when I hit 100 mph so I;m willing to
pay for it.

Ed Pawlowski

April 2nd 17 01:58 AM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 4/1/2017 4:58 PM, Jonas Schneider wrote:

>
> In researching how many tires TireRack sells in a year, I found that the
> average online profit on a tire is about $25.
>
> On a typical ultra high performance tire which is, say, $75, that means
> that 1/3 the cost is pure profit online.
>

What is pure profit? Are you talking the difference between the price
they pay and the price they sell the tire? That is far from pure.
OTOH, if you did a cost analysis of the labor and overhead of running
the business I may agree.

Jonas Schneider

April 2nd 17 03:24 AM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 20:50:42 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>> I have nothing against good service, but since I mount and balance my own
>> tires, I can't think of why I would need that good service?
>
> Very few of us mount our own tires. I can't justify the investment when
> I buy a set of tires every18 months at best.

I think most of us don't do "hard" things, where we define "hard" any way
we want.

For example, probably none of us roof our own homes.
Probably none of us pump our own septic systems.
Many of us don't even maintain our own pool chemistry.

In the realm of automobile maintenance, most of us don't replace clutches,
nor do most of us blueprint an engine. Probably we do basic repairs, but I
agree with you that most people consider both mounting tires and aligning
the steering and suspension to be jobs we routinely farm out.

Having said that we farm out the "hard" jobs, you'll note that I think your
statement is completely incorrect that we can't "justify the investment".

Mounting and balancing tools are about three hundred bucks, where it's
trivial to justify that investment based on your cycle of 18 months per
vehicle for a set of tires.

At 20 per tire the equipment pays for itself in 15 tires, which for two
cars would be about six years (at 18 months per set) if I did the math
right.

Likewise, alignment equipment is similarly priced at about three to five
hundred bucks, which at a price of alignments at about a hundred bucks out
here (on sale), would pay for itself in just a few years for a two-car
family.

Everyone "says" they can't justify the price - but the real reason we don't
do alignment is that there is a tremendous amount of thinking that has to
do on in order to convert length to angles and vice versa.

Similarly, the reason people don't do their own mounting and balancing is
not the justification of the price - but it's the hard work involved - and
also a bit of learning about technique.

> Let's call it "good value". I don't mind paying a little more at times
> but I certainly don't want to get gouged. I try to check out prices
> before buying anything. Lowest price is not always the cheapest buy.

There are no blanket absolutes, where I agree with you that most people
zoom into price and price alone as the arbiter of quality.

The main problem I see with humans is that they're basically incapable of
handling the detail that is required to get the best price-to-performance
value of complex objects.

For example, how many times have you seen someone shop for car batteries by
warrantee length, for example? That's ridiculous. Yet people do it. You
know why? They can't handle the complexity of amps and amp hours.

Likewise with tires. They buy them by treadwear warrantee claims, as if
that was in the least meaningful. You know why? Because people who can't
handle detail can still handle numbers. To them, a tire with a 45K mile
warrantee is better than a tire with a 35K mile warrantee - simply because
they can process the fact that 45K is a larger number than 35K is.

My theory is that the reason why people think that price is an indication
of quality is only because they don't know how to determine quality - but -
they can figure out price. So, to make their simple minds process the
problem set, they immediately assume a $500 tire is better than a $100
tire.

>> What's the absolute worst thing that can happen to a tire?
> Ask the guy that has a flat spare because he never check it.

I've seen people who get flats park their car on the shoulder, and call for
a ride (or call for AAA). Mostly women, where, I agree, some SUV tires are
extremely heavy, and it's not worth getting run over at night in the rain
while you're changing a spare tire.

But most of us can change our own tires.

Besides, most of us carry a 12-VDC compressor in the trunk along with the
OEM jack, triangle reflectors, chocks, spare tools, a flashlight, etc.

> You'd be right if I was driving my '62 Corvair with 13" wheels. I need
> 245/45R18 and cheap ones ar $92 and go up to $260. I drive enough to
> justify a good tire over one that just has to go 2 miles to the grocery
> store.

How do you define a "good tire"?

Your argument above seems to assume a $92 tire is worse than a $260 tire.
But your argument didn't say a single thing about what you use to determine
what a "good tire" is.

Price has absolutely no bearing on quality.
Price is only an indication of demand.

There are a *lot* of not-so-intelligent people out there who will pay
upwards of tens of thousands of dollars for a diamond-studded watch, but
that doesn't mean you get any better of a time piece than a ten-dollar
Timex.

>> However, you're NOT getting the best price:performance deal at 600 bucks
>> for a set of four tires. That's fine, if you're flush with money, simply
>> because money isn't important to anyone who has a lot of it.
>
> Questionable. I want a good tire when I hit 100 mph so I;m willing to
> pay for it.

AFAIK, no standard passenger car tire is legal to sell in the USA that
won't go 112 mph. The "S" rating is the slowest tire that is allowed to be
sold in the USA for standard-use passenger on-road tires.

That means you won't be able to find a tire for your car that can't go 100
mph, especially at that size.

Nonetheless, how would you compare these tires at Walmart today?

$73 Milestar MS932 Sport Radial Tire, 245/45R18 100V
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Milestar-...-100V/55190013

$80 245/45ZR18 100W BSW Radar Dimax R8 Tires
https://www.walmart.com/ip/245-45ZR1...Tires/55376322

$81 Rydanz ROADSTER R02 Tire P245/45R18 100W
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Rydanz-RO...-100W/52292477

$105 Nexen N5000 Plus Tire 245/45R18XL 100V
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Nexen-N50...-100V/39511145

$114 Antares Ingens A1 245/45R18 100W Tire
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Antares-I...Tires/49651271

$115 General GMAX AS-03 Tire 245/45ZR18XL 100W
https://www.walmart.com/ip/General-G...R18XL/33092363

$120 Uniroyal Tiger Paw GTZ All Season Tire 245/45ZR18 96W
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Uniroyal-...6W-BW/20531817

$126 Kumho ECSTA 4XII Tire 245/45R18 100W
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Kumho-ECS...-100W/44608099

$141 General Altimax RT43 Tire 245/45R18 100V Tire
https://www.walmart.com/ip/General-A...-100V/42955397

$151 245/45-18 HANKOOK VENTUS S1 Noble 2 H452 100W BSW Tires
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Ventus-S1...R18XL/43079164

$151 Goodyear Eagle RS-A Tire P245/45R18
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Goodyear-...-45R18/5172553

$154 BF Goodrich g-Force COMP 2 A/S Tire 245/45ZR18 96W
https://www.walmart.com/ip/BF-Goodri...8-96W/44658605

$157 Cooper CS5 Ultra Touring 100V Tire 245/45R18
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Cooper-CS...45R18/47406871

$157 Yokohama Advan Sport A/S 100W Tire 245/45R18
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Yokohama-...45R18/47407491

$171 Continental Extreme Contact DWS06 Tire 245/45ZR18XL 100Y
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Continent...-100Y/44786691

$175 Pirelli PZero All Season Plus 245/45R18XL 100Y
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pirelli-P...-100Y/50554992

$216 Michelin Pilot MXM4 Tire P245/45R18 96V
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pilot-HXMXM4/12177683

$232 Vogue Custom Built Radial VIII 245/45R18 100 V Tires
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Vogue-Cus...Tires/50753784

HINT: I know how to pick the best tire in that bunch - and it's not by
price alone.

Jonas Schneider

April 2nd 17 03:24 AM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 20:58:20 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>> On a typical ultra high performance tire which is, say, $75, that means
>> that 1/3 the cost is pure profit online.
>>
>
> What is pure profit? Are you talking the difference between the price
> they pay and the price they sell the tire? That is far from pure.
> OTOH, if you did a cost analysis of the labor and overhead of running
> the business I may agree.

Your question is a fair question, since my original assumption was that
tires are a commodity, where it's not the general nature of a commodity to
sell much above it's cost.

Let's go back to that number to see what it was saying exactly.
http://www.moderntiredealer.com/uplo...issue-2015.pdf

That PDF says that there are 200 million replacement tires sold each year,
where, on page 52 of that document, we find the exact words:
"According to a recent Modern Tire Dealer survey of independent
retail and wholesale tire dealers, the average profit margin
on a passenger tire is 26.4%. For a light truck tire it falls to 24%.
The average wholesale passenger tire sales margin is 12.4%."

Jonas Schneider

April 2nd 17 03:24 AM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

Jonas Schneider

April 2nd 17 03:48 AM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 02:24:29 +0000 (UTC), Jonas Schneider
> wrote:

>> What is pure profit? Are you talking the difference between the price
>> they pay and the price they sell the tire? That is far from pure.
>> OTOH, if you did a cost analysis of the labor and overhead of running
>> the business I may agree.
>
> Your question is a fair question, since my original assumption was that
> tires are a commodity, where it's not the general nature of a commodity to
> sell much above it's cost.
>
> Let's go back to that number to see what it was saying exactly.
> http://www.moderntiredealer.com/uplo...issue-2015.pdf
>
> That PDF says that there are 200 million replacement tires sold each year,
> where, on page 52 of that document, we find the exact words:
> "According to a recent Modern Tire Dealer survey of independent
> retail and wholesale tire dealers, the average profit margin
> on a passenger tire is 26.4%. For a light truck tire it falls to 24%.
> The average wholesale passenger tire sales margin is 12.4%."

Here are the definitions:
Sales Margin: http://smallbusiness.chron.com/sales-margin-18383.html
Profit Margin: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/profitmargin.asp

Ed Pawlowski

April 2nd 17 03:48 AM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 4/1/2017 10:24 PM, Jonas Schneider wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 20:58:20 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>>> On a typical ultra high performance tire which is, say, $75, that means
>>> that 1/3 the cost is pure profit online.
>>>
>>
>> What is pure profit? Are you talking the difference between the price
>> they pay and the price they sell the tire? That is far from pure.
>> OTOH, if you did a cost analysis of the labor and overhead of running
>> the business I may agree.
>
> Your question is a fair question, since my original assumption was that
> tires are a commodity, where it's not the general nature of a commodity to
> sell much above it's cost.
>
> Let's go back to that number to see what it was saying exactly.
> http://www.moderntiredealer.com/uplo...issue-2015.pdf
>
> That PDF says that there are 200 million replacement tires sold each year,
> where, on page 52 of that document, we find the exact words:
> "According to a recent Modern Tire Dealer survey of independent
> retail and wholesale tire dealers, the average profit margin
> on a passenger tire is 26.4%. For a light truck tire it falls to 24%.
> The average wholesale passenger tire sales margin is 12.4%."
>

That is a pretty small margin, Far from pure profit. You have to take
out rent, labor, utilities, insurance, supplies for office, shipping,
maintenance,taxes.

rbowman

April 2nd 17 05:17 AM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 04/01/2017 08:24 PM, Jonas Schneider wrote:
> HINT: I know how to pick the best tire in that bunch - and it's not by
> price alone.

So enlighten us.

burfordTjustice[_2_]

April 2nd 17 01:37 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - SPAM

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 15:34:36 +0000 (UTC)
Jonas Schneider > wrote:

> rom: Jonas Schneider >
> Subject: I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how
> can they do it?) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 15:34:36 +0000 (UTC)
> User-Agent: ForteAgent/7.20.32.1218
> Newsgroups: alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,ca.driving
> Organization: albasani.net
>
> On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 07:39:33 -0400, burfordTjustice
> > wrote:
>
> >> but we already
> >> know TireRack has huge volume.
> >
> >
> > what is your evidence?
>
> That's a good question.
> I'm not sure *why* you ask, since it's a decent assumption.
> But if your point is that I have no idea what their volume is, you are
> completely correct.
>
> I simply *assumed* that all the big online tire retailers have 'huge'
> volume.

So you have no clue what you are talking about.

Who coulda guessed.

Ed Pawlowski

April 2nd 17 02:41 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 4/1/2017 10:24 PM, Jonas Schneider wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 20:50:42 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>>> I have nothing against good service, but since I mount and balance my own
>>> tires, I can't think of why I would need that good service?
>>
>> Very few of us mount our own tires. I can't justify the investment when
>> I buy a set of tires every18 months at best.
>
> I think most of us don't do "hard" things, where we define "hard" any way
> we want.
>
> For example, probably none of us roof our own homes.
> Probably none of us pump our own septic systems.
> Many of us don't even maintain our own pool chemistry.
>
> In the realm of automobile maintenance, most of us don't replace clutches,
> nor do most of us blueprint an engine. Probably we do basic repairs, but I
> agree with you that most people consider both mounting tires and aligning
> the steering and suspension to be jobs we routinely farm out.

There was a time I did all of that stuff. As I got older, I found it
easier to write checks than drop a tranny. I still put in the
windshield washer fluid though.

>
> Having said that we farm out the "hard" jobs, you'll note that I think your
> statement is completely incorrect that we can't "justify the investment".
>
> Mounting and balancing tools are about three hundred bucks, where it's
> trivial to justify that investment based on your cycle of 18 months per
> vehicle for a set of tires.
>
> At 20 per tire the equipment pays for itself in 15 tires, which for two
> cars would be about six years (at 18 months per set) if I did the math
> right.

On a monetary basis, yes. On a practical basis, no. I'm not willing to
invest a lot of time and space to save $20 when I can earn that in less
time than it takes to mount the tire.

>
> Similarly, the reason people don't do their own mounting and balancing is
> not the justification of the price - but it's the hard work involved - and
> also a bit of learning about technique.

Work is a factor. Some people actually enjoy the sense of
accomplishment more than the money saved. Or perhaps you can do a
little part time brain surgery and earn enough in an hour to pay for a
full set of tires, including mount and balance.

> My theory is that the reason why people think that price is an indication
> of quality is only because they don't know how to determine quality - but -
> they can figure out price. So, to make their simple minds process the
> problem set, they immediately assume a $500 tire is better than a $100
> tire.

Given the price difference it may be better, but not 5X better. I find
that as price goes up, value goes down. Applies to most everything we
buy. Double the price and get 50% better, tops. Is it better to have a
fully loaded Chevy or a stripped down Buick at the same price?

>
> But most of us can change our own tires.
>
> Besides, most of us carry a 12-VDC compressor in the trunk along with the
> OEM jack, triangle reflectors, chocks, spare tools, a flashlight, etc.

My car came with 5 ears of roadside assistance. Last time a tire had to
be changed I sat in the car at night in the rain for 20 minutes for the
guy to show up. Nice feature. I don't recall the last time I used a
lug wrench, but is is over 25 years.

> Your argument above seems to assume a $92 tire is worse than a $260 tire.
> But your argument didn't say a single thing about what you use to determine
> what a "good tire" is.

You have quite a list of tires. Some do not give a traction rating
though. Of course, I'd want A or AA. What the specs don't show is how
well constructed the tire is, how well it rides, how quiet it is. Name
brand means little too. There are plenty of lesser known companies that
make excellent products.

I a curious as to which one you would buy and why.

> Nonetheless, how would you compare these tires at Walmart today?
>

>
> HINT: I know how to pick the best tire in that bunch - and it's not by
> price alone.
>

You have my attention

Jonas Schneider

April 2nd 17 06:08 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 22:17:13 -0600, rbowman > wrote:

>> HINT: I know how to pick the best tire in that bunch - and it's not by
>> price alone.
>
> So enlighten us.

As I explained to Ed Pawlowski, my process may differ from yours or his,
so, I only present my process as a logical process based on an
understanding of the specs and the various tradeoffs, where you can't go
wrong in my process because you throw out all tires that don't meet OEM
specs (if you believe in the OEM specs, which I do for my tires).

Once you've whittled down the selection to tires that all meet or exceed
the OEM specs, then you rank them in the order of trusted specification
that you care about most.

If you care most about "road noise", then you're a gonner because you're
not going to get that as a reliable spec, even if you read all the
boy-racer reviews on the planet.

Likewise, if you care about marketing appeal (e.g., whatever marketing
claims you'll get, whether that be blonds smiling at you while you drive by
or the safety of not running over the neighbor's kids), you're not gonna be
able to reliably rank the tires.

However, if you care about, say, wet traction, well then, you're in luck.
The specs on the side of the tire tell you the wet straight-line traction
coefficient on both asphalt and concrete.

Also the treadwear gives you the average dry traction coefficient in the
ratio of 2.25 divided by the treadwear raised to the 0.15 power.

So that gives you three separate traction coefficients to rank the tiers by
first.

Let's say you second-most care about safety, given that all tires sold in
the USA are safe. Some are better built than others, where there are a
bunch of ratings which give you construction information.

There's the speed rating from the manufacturer (e.g., W versus V), which is
really a heat-generation-and-dissipating rating, and there's the
temperature rating (e.g., A vs B) which is similar but measured by the
government. There's also the load range (e.g., 99 versus 95), and the ply
rating (e.g., XL).

And then there's the price which can offset any of those based on your
current feeling about dollars.

If money is no object, then you can get the AA A A 100 XL 105W tires, but
if money is critical to you, then you still can't go wrong with AA A A 500
99V rated tires.

Once you list the tires by spec that you care about, there is almost never
a dead-heat tied, but if there were a tie, I'd use the "soft stuff" as the
tie breaker, e.g., white sidewalls, or treadwear warranty, or the smile of
the salesman or the taste of their free coffee.

It's the same method as you choose brake pads by the way, or motor oil, or
differential lube, or any commodity that has technical merit.

Jonas Schneider

April 2nd 17 06:08 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 09:41:41 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

> There was a time I did all of that stuff. As I got older, I found it
> easier to write checks than drop a tranny. I still put in the
> windshield washer fluid though.

Like you, I used to do more stuff myself.
Now I do "deferred maintenance".
:)

> On a monetary basis, yes. On a practical basis, no. I'm not willing to
> invest a lot of time and space to save $20 when I can earn that in less
> time than it takes to mount the tire.

What you just said is the real reason most people don't mount their own
tires and align their suspension. Over a decade, it would cost only $800
for two cars' mounting, and $1000 for alignments.

You can make more than that by not taking the appreciable time that it
would take to just LEARN how to do mounting and alignments.

My only beef with that sentiment is that people don't tell the truth to
themselves when they say that the reason they don't do it is the cost of
the tools.

The reason is, as you said, that they have better things to do.
And that's ok.

> Work is a factor. Some people actually enjoy the sense of
> accomplishment more than the money saved.

This is true. It's why people do crossword puzzles.
For me, I get a sense of empowerment.

I enjoy the freedom and convenience of fixing a flat, for example, at home.
So, if the tire is low, I limp home and fix it.
And when I put it back on, I feel safe and satisfied.

> Or perhaps you can do a
> little part time brain surgery and earn enough in an hour to pay for a
> full set of tires, including mount and balance.

Absolutely.
This is the real reason most people don't align and mount.
It's because they have better things to do.
All I'm asking is for people to be truthful to themselves.

> Given the price difference it may be better, but not 5X better.

We're both old men so I don't have to explain that price is an indication
of demand only whereas quality may or may not correspond to demand.

Certainly higher-quality food, for example, would be in demand, but, it's
well known in the grocery business that when fruits and vegetables are
plentiful, the price goes down and the quality goes up.

When it's off season, or if there was a drought, the price goes up and the
quality goes down.

My main argument is that anyone who says "you get what you pay for", hasn't
thought the problem set through.

You actually get what you get, and you pay what *others* are willing to pay
(since the masses set the price ... you don't set the price).

My hypothesis is that those who use price as a major indicator of quality
are generally those who don't understand that which they are buying.

They use a number as an indicator of quality only because two numbers are
easy for them to measure against (whereas cold cranking amps and amp hours
are harder for them to compare for two reasons).
1. Technical specs need to be understood, in and of themselves
2. Technical specs often need to be balanced against one another

I may be wrong - but that's my theory.

> I find
> that as price goes up, value goes down.

I can't disagree.
Look at how much off-season fruits and vegetables cost.

If we somewhat equate "value" to "quality", we can note that the quality of
fruit goes down in the off season, and yet the price goes up.

The quality goes down as the price goes up simply due to supply and demand,
where individuals don't get to determine either the supply nor the demand.

As an individual, you either pay that price - or you don't pay that price.

If there are enough people who pay that price, the price stays high.

If there aren't enough people to pay that price, the supply either
disappears, or the price goes down.

So, the price isn't any indicator of quality nor value.
It's merely an indicator of aggregate demand.

> Applies to most everything we
> buy. Double the price and get 50% better, tops. Is it better to have a
> fully loaded Chevy or a stripped down Buick at the same price?

You have a good point which is that for every dollar increase in price, you
often get exponentially less increase in value.

So, for example, a one hundred dollar car has a certain price:performance
ratio, but a two hundred thousand dollar car probably doesn't have a 2:1
price:performance ratio. It's probably far less than 2:1.

> My car came with 5 ears of roadside assistance. Last time a tire had to
> be changed I sat in the car at night in the rain for 20 minutes for the
> guy to show up. Nice feature. I don't recall the last time I used a
> lug wrench, but is is over 25 years.

Is it just me, or do we get fewer flats nowadays?
I remember, as a kid, that I got flats in my bias-ply tires rather
frequently. Now I only get about one or two flats a year.

I find that where I drive has a lot to do with flats.
Where I live there is a bunch of new construction, and lots of remodeling
and landscaping.

Personally, I think nuts and bolts fall off the truck, but I can't prove
that.

My wife has AAA which I'm ok with since it makes her feel good.
Truth be known, she calls me and I take care of the problem.

But she feels safer knowing they'll tow her or give her gas or jump her car
or fix a flat, or jimmy her locks, or whatever it is that they do.

I even once called them because I parked on a hill in what turned out to be
mud and my RWD sedan couldn't back out and I couldn't go forward as the
nose was buried into the hillside.

So I called her AAA, and they took it even though I'm not female. I don't
think the driver of the tow truck cares, as long as he gets paid. He pulled
me out of that mud (sideways!) and I drove off intact.

So AAA has its merits.

> You have quite a list of tires. Some do not give a traction rating
> though. Of course, I'd want A or AA.

Now we get to the point of deciding how to buy a tire!
What matters is what matters to you.

But we can assume, as you did, that wet straightline traction is critical.
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret....jsp?techid=48

For the size you mentioned, you'd probably never want to ever go below A,
and you'd almost certainly want AA.
A = above 0.47g on wet asphalt, above 0.35g on concrete
AA = above 0.54g on wet asphalt, above 0.38g on concrete

The treadwear rating also gives you an average dry friction coefficient
using the formula that the average dry friction coefficient is 2.25 divided
by the treadwear rating raised to the 0.15 power.

> What the specs don't show is how
> well constructed the tire is, how well it rides, how quiet it is.

Actually, the specs do tell you how well constructed the tire is.

The load range tells you very much how well constructed the tire is.
The speed rating tells you that also.
Also the XL designation (aka the ply rating) tells you that.
As does the temperature rating.

> Name
> brand means little too. There are plenty of lesser known companies that
> make excellent products.

While Goodyear & Michelin marketing people must hate intelligent thinkers
like you and me, I have to agree with you that brand name, for tires, is
meaningless.

Just as there are no bad brake pads sold in the US, there are no bad tires
sold in the USA.

The specs that must be printed on friction materials tells you what you
need to know, and the specs that must be embossed into the tire sidewall
tell you what you need to know.

There are just various levels of good.

> I am curious as to which one you would buy and why.

My selection process is as easy as simple math, but my purely logical
selection process requires technical knowledge sufficient to understand the
specs printed on the sidewall of every tire.

I didn't look at the sidewall specs of all those tires, but my process
would be the same with choosing your tire as with choosing mine.

A. There are no absolutes when tradeoffs are involved, but generally:
1. I would compare everything against the OEM tire spec!
2. That is, any tire that meets OEM specs goes on the short list.
3. And any tire that fails any of the OEM specs, is tossed out.

B. Then I would rate highest what I care about most.
1. If that is wet traction, then I'd put the AA tires on top.
2. But if that was treadwear, I'd put the 500s above the 100s.
3. If it was price, then the cheapest OEM-spec tire would be on top.

One by one, I'd rank the tires in the order of the specs I care about.
Assuming it was wettraction/treadwear/price, then I would rank like this:

a. AA 500 $150
b. AA 400 $100
c. A 500 $75

There is rarely an exact tie, but if there were an exact tie, then I'd make
the decision based on other factors, such as warranty or the smile on the
salesman's face, or whatever the "soft" tie-breaker criteria may be.

The problem where most people give up is how to rank those three criteria
above on "value".

As you noted, making the value tradeoffs are the bitch here.

For example, I can see myself choosing *any* of those sample tires, based
on those value tradeoffs.
a. AA 500 $150 has the best wet traction & the best treadwear
b. AA 400 $100 has the best wet traction & is a lot cheaper
c. A 500 $75 is a lot cheaper and has good wet traction & treadwear

>> Nonetheless, how would you compare these tires at Walmart today?
>> HINT: I know how to pick the best tire in that bunch - and it's not by
>> price alone.
> You have my attention

If this was my wife's car, I'd probably choose "a" but if it was mine, I'd
probably choose "c"; but my point is that you only look at tires that meet
or exceed OEM specs, and then you list the tires by teh specs YOU care
about most.

Then you make tradeoffs based on the specs.

The point is that you don't make those tradeoffs based on brand, sidewall
color, tread pattern, boy-racer reviews, dealer recommendations, etc.,
since most people are looking for someone else to tell them how to buy
tires, where, my premise is that the sidewall tells you everything you need
to know.

Ed Pawlowski

April 2nd 17 06:54 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 4/2/2017 1:08 PM, Jonas Schneider wrote:

>
> Certainly higher-quality food, for example, would be in demand, but, it's
> well known in the grocery business that when fruits and vegetables are
> plentiful, the price goes down and the quality goes up.
>
> When it's off season, or if there was a drought, the price goes up and the
> quality goes down.

Chicken wings used to be cheap. I remember years ago buying a 5 pound
bag for a quarter. Yes, 5 cents a pound or in today's money, about 36
cents a pound. Since becoming popular they are selling for about $2,50
a pound. For dinner tonight I'm making thighs on sale for 99 cents.

> Is it just me, or do we get fewer flats nowadays?
> I remember, as a kid, that I got flats in my bias-ply tires rather
> frequently. Now I only get about one or two flats a year.

Far fewer flats. Less destructive too, in a sense. Seems they lose air
slower so that nail may be in there and give you a day or two hint you
have a problem. (assuming you look at the tires once in a while) Goes
low slow so you can drive to a place to take care of it instead of in
the dark on the highway.

> Now we get to the point of deciding how to buy a tire!
> What matters is what matters to you.

>
> My selection process is as easy as simple math, but my purely logical
> selection process requires technical knowledge sufficient to understand the
> specs printed on the sidewall of every tire.
>
> I didn't look at the sidewall specs of all those tires, but my process
> would be the same with choosing your tire as with choosing mine.
>
> A. There are no absolutes when tradeoffs are involved, but generally:
> 1. I would compare everything against the OEM tire spec!
> 2. That is, any tire that meets OEM specs goes on the short list.
> 3. And any tire that fails any of the OEM specs, is tossed out.
>
> B. Then I would rate highest what I care about most.
> 1. If that is wet traction, then I'd put the AA tires on top.
> 2. But if that was treadwear, I'd put the 500s above the 100s.
> 3. If it was price, then the cheapest OEM-spec tire would be on top.
>
> One by one, I'd rank the tires in the order of the specs I care about.
> Assuming it was wettraction/treadwear/price, then I would rank like this:
>

Thanks for taking the time to explain that. I'll be looking for tires
in the fall and will use that process. In the past, snow was a factor,
but now that I'm retired, I may never intentionally drive in snow again.
Sure, it can happen but planning ahead eliminates 99% of it.

rbowman

April 2nd 17 07:00 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 04/02/2017 11:08 AM, Jonas Schneider wrote:
> Once you've whittled down the selection to tires that all meet or exceed
> the OEM specs, then you rank them in the order of trusted specification
> that you care about most.

The last set of tires I bought were Cooper CS5's. In part my choice was
determined by reviews by boy racers like this:

http://www.motortrend.com/news/coope...5-tire-review/

I did not chose the OEM tires, Bridgestone Potenza 92E's. While they
have acceptable performance on dry pavement, they are a low rolling
resistance design that helps Toyota with their fleet mileage statistics.
I had two Yaris's that came with the tires and wore them out in under
25,000 miles. I find that unacceptable for a lightweight vehicle.

I won't even start on my process for selecting bike tires, particularly
for my dual sport bike. For example, Dunlop D606's are great in mud but
howl like a banshee at 80 mph on pavement. Bridgestone Trailwings are
civilized on the pavement but only marginally better than any pure
street tire in the mud.

Even bicycle tires are not exempt. Want to know the rationale behind my
recent purchase of a set of Serfas Drifters?

AMuzi

April 2nd 17 07:13 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 4/2/2017 1:00 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 04/02/2017 11:08 AM, Jonas Schneider wrote:

> Even bicycle tires are not exempt. Want to know the
> rationale behind my recent purchase of a set of Serfas
> Drifters?

Here's a guess. You couldn't find a Michelin City tire.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

rbowman

April 2nd 17 09:19 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 04/02/2017 12:13 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/2/2017 1:00 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> On 04/02/2017 11:08 AM, Jonas Schneider wrote:
>
>> Even bicycle tires are not exempt. Want to know the
>> rationale behind my recent purchase of a set of Serfas
>> Drifters?
>
> Here's a guess. You couldn't find a Michelin City tire.
>

Not in 26" at the local REI, just 27". The tires I replaced were
Continental Town & Country. They were my favorites years ago but then I
couldn't find them. They reappeared so I got a set. Meanwhile,
Continental had switched production to India or China. I bought them in
June of 2015. As I pumped them up to 65 psi this spring, I heard an odd,
tearing noise. It was the sidewall cords ripping apart. Looking on the
forums, early sidewall failure is common with the new manufacture. So
much for T&C.

Before the Contis I'd been running Ritchey Tom Slicks. They'll take a
higher pressure and are faster but I found them to be high maintenance.
I'll see how the Serfas do. At least running 65 psi instead of 90
softens some of the bumps and I'm not racing.

My other Mtn bike has knobbies and when I do ride on pavement it seems
like a lot of work compared to the slicks or inverted tread.

The Real Bev[_5_]

April 2nd 17 10:19 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 04/02/2017 10:54 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 4/2/2017 1:08 PM, Jonas Schneider wrote:

>> My selection process is as easy as simple math, but my purely logical
>> selection process requires technical knowledge sufficient to understand the
>> specs printed on the sidewall of every tire.
>>
>> I didn't look at the sidewall specs of all those tires, but my process
>> would be the same with choosing your tire as with choosing mine.
>>
>> A. There are no absolutes when tradeoffs are involved, but generally:
>> 1. I would compare everything against the OEM tire spec!
>> 2. That is, any tire that meets OEM specs goes on the short list.
>> 3. And any tire that fails any of the OEM specs, is tossed out.
>>
>> B. Then I would rate highest what I care about most.
>> 1. If that is wet traction, then I'd put the AA tires on top.
>> 2. But if that was treadwear, I'd put the 500s above the 100s.
>> 3. If it was price, then the cheapest OEM-spec tire would be on top.
>>
>> One by one, I'd rank the tires in the order of the specs I care about.
>> Assuming it was wettraction/treadwear/price, then I would rank like this:
>>
>
> Thanks for taking the time to explain that. I'll be looking for tires
> in the fall and will use that process. In the past, snow was a factor,
> but now that I'm retired, I may never intentionally drive in snow again.
> Sure, it can happen but planning ahead eliminates 99% of it.

When I was reading about this stuff I couldn't find out anything about
DRY traction, which is what we mostly need in SoCal. Can treadwear
approximate this? The softer the tire the better the traction but the
shorter the lifetime?

--
Cheers, Bev
Judges are our only protection against a legal system that can
afford lots more prosecution than we can afford defense.

AMuzi

April 2nd 17 10:33 PM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 4/2/2017 3:19 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 04/02/2017 12:13 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/2/2017 1:00 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>> On 04/02/2017 11:08 AM, Jonas Schneider wrote:
>>
>>> Even bicycle tires are not exempt. Want to know the
>>> rationale behind my recent purchase of a set of Serfas
>>> Drifters?
>>
>> Here's a guess. You couldn't find a Michelin City tire.
>>
>
> Not in 26" at the local REI, just 27". The tires I replaced
> were Continental Town & Country. They were my favorites
> years ago but then I couldn't find them. They reappeared so
> I got a set. Meanwhile, Continental had switched production
> to India or China. I bought them in June of 2015. As I
> pumped them up to 65 psi this spring, I heard an odd,
> tearing noise. It was the sidewall cords ripping apart.
> Looking on the forums, early sidewall failure is common with
> the new manufacture. So much for T&C.
>
> Before the Contis I'd been running Ritchey Tom Slicks.
> They'll take a higher pressure and are faster but I found
> them to be high maintenance. I'll see how the Serfas do. At
> least running 65 psi instead of 90 softens some of the bumps
> and I'm not racing.
>
> My other Mtn bike has knobbies and when I do ride on
> pavement it seems like a lot of work compared to the slicks
> or inverted tread.
>
>

Agreed on the Ritchey. That's a Panaracer product; very
light, very fast, uniform, smooth ride. A fine weave fabric
but doesn't suffer abuse well. Different customer from a
Serfas or a Michelin.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Jonas Schneider

April 3rd 17 02:27 AM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 12:00:14 -0600, rbowman > wrote:

> The last set of tires I bought were Cooper CS5's. In part my choice was
> determined by reviews by boy racers like this:
> http://www.motortrend.com/news/coope...5-tire-review/

Auurgh! Tire reviews.
Tire reviews are like people rating their mother's cooking.
Everyone is biased toward the tires *they* selected, while some can't stand
their mother, no matter what.

The market research I quoted earlier said that 60% of buyers want someone
else to choose their tires for them. To me, that's what reviews are for. So
some boy racer in a 1968 Camaro can tell you what you should put in your
Honda.

The problem with boy-racer reviews is that they're religion and politics
wrapped up in false buttmeter readings surrounded by marketing placebos.
Oh, and did I mention that there is absolutely zero instrumentation?

Did you ever watch a boy racer take a motorcycle drivers' license test?
Everyone one thinks he nailed it, and yet, with a dispassionate observer, a
huge proportion actually failed.

A guy spends six hundred bucks for tires, and then he writes a review about
it. The review is sort of like how the CIA rates dictators we prop up in
South America. Yeah, they're *******s, but they are "our *******s".

Anyway, with that in mind, let's read that review:
COOPER TIRE CS5 TIRE REVIEW
http://www.motortrend.com/news/coope...5-tire-review/

This is getting long so I'll post my observations of that review
separately.

> I did not chose the OEM tires, Bridgestone Potenza 92E's.

You probably do what most people do, including me.
The market research I quoted said that most people choose OE tires early in
the life of the vehicle, where they stray further and further away as the
vehicle ages.

> I won't even start on my process for selecting bike tires, particularly
> for my dual sport bike. For example, Dunlop D606's are great in mud but
> howl like a banshee at 80 mph on pavement. Bridgestone Trailwings are
> civilized on the pavement but only marginally better than any pure
> street tire in the mud.

I'm not sure how motorcycle tires differ from passenger-car tires, as it
has been a while since I have ridden myself. Last ones I bought I mounted
myself though, and didn't bother to balance them.

> Even bicycle tires are not exempt. Want to know the rationale behind my
> recent purchase of a set of Serfas Drifters?

The problem I have with bicycle tires is that the specs aren't known, so,
you're stuck with lousy data to make a decision upon.

Jonas Schneider

April 3rd 17 03:07 AM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can they do it?)

On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 01:27:54 +0000 (UTC), Jonas Schneider
> wrote:

> Anyway, with that in mind, let's read that review:
> COOPER TIRE CS5 TIRE REVIEW
> http://www.motortrend.com/news/coope...5-tire-review/

Here are my impressions as I read that specific review:
http://www.motortrend.com/news/coope...5-tire-review/

* It's Motor Trend, so, the good is that it's not some kid in a Camaro.
* It's Motor Trend which I respect less than I do Car & Driver.
* But it's a professional outfit - so they should be ok (let's see).
----------
* They shill for Cooper Tires, which all the mags tend to do
* They went to San Antonio, which is the correct place to go in the USA
* Apparently they only tested Cooper CS5 Grand Touring & Ultra Touring
----------
* The bad news is that this is gonna only be about very few tires
* So how do we use that data to compare with the thirty other tires?
* The answer is that we can't - but let's keep reading.
----------
* Yikes. What kind of test are they running? The validity is crazy.
* Car A1 is a Ford Mustang fitted with Hankook Optimo H727 touring tires
* Car A2 is fitted with Cooper CS5 Grand Touring tires
* Car A3 is fitted with Cooper CSS Ultra Touring tires
* Car B1 is a Corvette driven by an Indy legend running Cooper Zeon RS3-A
tires. (WTF?)
----------
* Then they give us the obligatory marketing bs about silica & siping
* Then they describe the skidpad, which is a large lake of wet asphalt
----------
* The author takes the A1 Mustang with Hankook's and gets a "feel".
* Then he takes the A1 Mustang with Cooper CS5 Grand Touring tires.
* Surprise surprise. With the Cooper marketing guys paying for everything,
the author notices a "higher threshold of grip". Ummm... ok.
* The only measurement they made was the author's lap time, which, of
course, wasn't corrected for his experience increasing with the course.
* Then we hear the obligatory non-measured marketing bull**** about
"pregoressive" and "communication", all of which is boy-racer talk
(especially keeping in mind that Cooper is paying the tab).
----------
* OK. One complete bull**** test finished, where they didn't measure
anything meaningful, and they corrected for nothing, and yet, surprise
surprise, the test that the Cooper marketing guys designed from start to
finish shows that the marketing guys' test "showed how well the tires may
handle".
Sheesh. I just wasted my time, but I plod onward.
----------
* Now we're on a dry autocross on the Hankook tires.
* Surprise surprise. The marketing guys designed a test where "the story is
much the same". I'm shocked. Shocked I say. Shocked.
* This article reminds me of what a rag MT is, but let's look at this
objectively.
----------
* Lo and behold, the Mustang with the Cooper tires was "able to carry a
higher speed through teh corners with more driver confidence".
* What complete bull**** again.
* Again, nothing was tested except speed, which wasn't corrected for with
the driver gaining experience in the second run.
* Where are the placebo tires, by the way?
* What? Placebos? We don't do no stinking placebos in Marketing tests!
* Where are the corrections for experience?
* We don't do no stinking corrections.
* Where are the measurements?
* What? We don't report no stinking measurements.
----------
* I'm still plodding through, but this article is complete bull****.
* Even if it wasn't complete bull****, it still wouldn't prove anything
other than the stated Coopers might be better for a couple of things than
the stated Hancooks on a Mustang driven the way the marketing guys want you
to drive it.
----------
* Now it's lunch time.
* After lunch ... huh? Now we move to a BMW 328i? WTF?
* Nobody mentioned this BMW before. Oh well, it's a Marketing game.
* We're supposed to assume a small bimmer is impressive with Pirelli's I
guess.
----------
* Now they take the tiny bimmer on the Pirelli Cinturato P7 tires
* Then, same bull**** test, but with the Cooper CS5 Ultra Touring tires.
----------
* They play up the Pirellis, of course, (this is marketing, after all).
* Better to beat a better tire, don't you think?
* Anyway, even they admit it's not an "apples to apples" test when they say
the bimmer went faster than the Mustang did.
* This is really getting tedious with all the bull****.
----------
* OH my. The Pirelli was "much more communicative".
* Did they measure anything other than track speed yet.
* Nope. WHy would they. This isn't really a tire test after all.
----------
* Tediously, we get to the final test (I hope).
* Lo and behold, the "drive was more confident" with the final set of
tires.
* No measurements again, so, I call bull**** on the test again.
----------
* Back to the wet autocross with the bimmer on Pirellis.
* Lo and behold, the Marketing selected tires "returned the most confident
laps" (which were always the last laps, of course).
----------
* I love the next statement.
* "The best lap times were set with the cooper tires"
* Duh. It was always the last lap in a complex loop which the author
himself said it took getting used to. (them's marketing guys is no fools!)
----------
* For some reason, we now segue into Unser driving them around in a
Corvette. WTF?
----------
* Then we summarize by *repeating* the obligatory marketing bull**** about
silica and sipes, complete with brand names for the wear bars.
* I didn't know wear bars had brand names!
* Look at that, the tires have "durable uniform construction".
* The marketing guys must have ****ed in their pants hearing that.
* Woo hoo! "StabilEdge technology" (hint - those are the sipes, I guess).
* Lots of marketing bull**** in that paragraph - but let's move on.
----------
* Oh Jesus. More marketing bull**** about the "wear square".
* (As if it's rocket science to know when a tire is worn.)
----------
* Oh ****. Another paragraph of marketing bull****, this time for the third
time they cover "StabilEdge" bumps between the tire grooves.
* Does this bull**** never end?
----------
* Now they discuss the asymetrical tread - as if that's a big deal.
* They discuss the benefits to rotation ... which is ok stuff.
----------
* Now comes the great Marketing Conclusion.
* Guess what?
* Cooper is better than Hankook and Pirelli!
* Yup. There it is. A ****ty test but a great blanket statement>
=----------
* Guess what! "Cooper *dominated* these tests! Yup. Surprise surprise.
* Thank God that was the end.
----------

Overall, if you haven't guessed my reaction yet, they proved absolutely
nothing, and they tested almost absolutely nothing, and they certainly
measured only one thing and they didn't even report that measurement.

This was worse than a boy-racer review because it wasted everyone's time
except the marketing guys' budget at Cooper.
*

rbowman

April 3rd 17 04:56 AM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 04/02/2017 07:27 PM, Jonas Schneider wrote:
> Auurgh! Tire reviews.
> Tire reviews are like people rating their mother's cooking.
> Everyone is biased toward the tires *they* selected, while some can't stand
> their mother, no matter what.

Then you might as well blindfold yourself and throw darts at the wall.

> A guy spends six hundred bucks for tires, and then he writes a review about
> it. The review is sort of like how the CIA rates dictators we prop up in
> South America. Yeah, they're *******s, but they are "our *******s".

I doubt the Motor Trend writer is paying for many tires out of his own
pocket. Possibly he's getting paid under the table by Cooper but is that
worth slagging a couple of other brands that he found inferior?

The must have bought the topspeed author a few beers too:

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/cooper-...3761.html#main

But, like the guy said, buying tires is boring. Not sucking completely
is the main criteria.

>> > I did not chose the OEM tires, Bridgestone Potenza 92E's.
> You probably do what most people do, including me.
> The market research I quoted said that most people choose OE tires early in
> the life of the vehicle, where they stray further and further away as the
> vehicle ages.

The Bridgestones on the first Yaris were worn and I planned to replace
them in the spring with some other brand. However, the Yaris did not
survive a head on collision with a snow plow. The second Yaris came with
the same tires, which I replaced with Coopers when they wore out. The
92E's are not bad for ride quality, noise, and traction but the tread
life sucks and they're quite expensive when you're not Toyota buying
them by the boatload.

>
>> > I won't even start on my process for selecting bike tires, particularly
>> > for my dual sport bike. For example, Dunlop D606's are great in mud but
>> > howl like a banshee at 80 mph on pavement. Bridgestone Trailwings are
>> > civilized on the pavement but only marginally better than any pure
>> > street tire in the mud.
> I'm not sure how motorcycle tires differ from passenger-car tires, as it
> has been a while since I have ridden myself. Last ones I bought I mounted
> myself though, and didn't bother to balance them.

These days motorcycle tires tend to be designed for specific ends.
Dunlop D401's, known as Dunrocks in some circles, have great life. I got
over 15,000 on the rear and replaced the front when i got sick of
looking at it. However performance suffers. I ran a couple sets of
Bridgestone Spitfires. Much better performance, but only about 7500
miles on the rear. You pays your money and you makes your choice. I'm
running Pirelli Routes on the Harley now. Decent performance and the
jury is out on the mileage. All the boy racers report 10 to 15k, so
that's better than the spitfires.

I've been through a few flavors with the DR650. I get about 5000 miles
on the rear with D606 which is more oriented to off-road, and around
7000 with the Trailwings, which are more on road. I'm running Kendas
now, less aggressive than the D606's and they'll go to about 6000. When
I need a front tire it will not be a Kenda. For whatever reason it's a
pain in the butt to seat the beads on the Kenda fronts. I do not balance
knobbies. I mean, how could you ever tell?

The V-Strom gets Michelin Anakee III's. Good grip, good life, and not
completely useless in the dirt if you're careful. After all, what good
is an adventure bike if you can't adventure.

The big difference with bikes other than you only have two tires under
you so you think a little more about what you're buying, is you're also
buying them a lot more frequently and unless you're in a mindless rut
can do your own comparisons.

rbowman

April 3rd 17 05:10 AM

I used to buy tires from TireRack - now SimpleTire (how can theydo it?)

On 04/02/2017 08:07 PM, Jonas Schneider wrote:
> Overall, if you haven't guessed my reaction yet, they proved absolutely
> nothing, and they tested almost absolutely nothing, and they certainly
> measured only one thing and they didn't even report that measurement.

Okay, I get it. Every magazine writer is a complete asshole bought off
by the local friendly sales guy. Every civilian reviewer that laid out
$600 thinks whatever he bought is the greatest thing since sex. Nobody
publishes reliable data. The consumer is screwed. I'll go you one
better. A major chain in the western US, Les Schwab's, which I've bought
tires from, tends to sell tires with their own house models and brands.
I've bought tires from them, never had problems, and their service is
great, but good luck trying to find out anything about a 'Road Control
Touring A/S'.

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